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Committee

Education, Children and Young People Committee 10 September 2025

10 Sep 2025 · S6 · Education, Children and Young People Committee
Item of business
Children (Care, Care Experience and Services Planning) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Fraser McKinlay (The Promise Scotland) Watch on SPTV

I will add a couple of comments in relation to your questions, convener, around engagement and what the review might have envisioned back in 2020.

Engagement has been frustrating. I am sure that the Government will explain to you why it felt that there was no room for engagement on the specifics of the bill. We are in touch with officials all the time about things to do with the Promise. A lot of activity to progress the Promise is, quite appropriately, being taken forward outside legislation—legislation is by no means the only vehicle for effecting change.

In May 2024, The Promise Scotland sent a briefing to Government officials that set out a long list of things to consider for inclusion in the bill. We had various bits of engagement following on from that. We published all that information on our website so that everyone could see what we had been saying.

In speaking to colleagues who have experience of being involved in legislation in previous years, I found that everyone was struck by how locked down this bill was. It was locked down for reasons that we do not fully understand. Any legislation is all about the detail, and I would argue that that is the case with this bill in particular. It was only in the middle of May that I was given a confidential verbal briefing that set out only the headings that would be in the bill. We had no indication of the details until the bill was published on 18 June. As can be seen from a lot of the responses to the committee’s call for evidence, that has had a direct impact on how people are engaging with the content of the bill. It has landed quite cold. There is a sense that some of the things in it were consulted on officially, as the Government did four formal consultations, but that others have not had any consultation at all, and even came as a bit of a surprise to us. As Sheriff Mackie said, there has been a significant uptick in engagement since the bill was introduced. That is very positive. The Government held an engagement session this week. However, that means that a lot of engagement and stuff needs to be figured out between now and spring if the bill is to pass.

In terms of what the care review might have envisaged, Fiona Duncan has mentioned a key thing, which is the sense of decluttering a very busy legislative landscape. To be fair, officials were quite clear early on that that was unlikely to happen in the bill, but we have progressed work on it anyway. We commissioned somebody to do a thorough review of the legislative landscape and come up with options for how to simplify and streamline it—we are not giving up on that. If a decluttering of the legislative landscape is not in the bill, we think that the Parliament will need to come back to it in the next session.

The other thing that became clear through engagement towards the end of 2024 was that the scope of the bill was unlikely to cover areas of the Promise that could be described as being a bit further away from the core care system, if I may use that phrase. Much of the Promise touches on education, criminal justice and health, but they are not covered in the bill because its scope broadly focuses on what people would recognise as this thing that is known as the care system. It is important that there are other opportunities to progress the work in those other areas, which, as we have said to the committee in the past, are critically important to keeping the Promise.

In the same item of business

The Convener Con
Welcome back. The next item of business is evidence, over two panels, on the Children (Care, Care Experience and Services Planning) (Scotland) Bill. I welcom...
Sheriff David Mackie (Hearings System Working Group)
Good morning. There are positive aspects to the bill and elements that are very welcome, such as the discretion that the bill proposes to give to reporters t...
The Convener Con
I am particularly interested in proposed new section 90. You have looked at legislation from the Parliament before. Have you seen that approach in the past, ...
Sheriff Mackie
Absolutely. In a year in which we have incorporated the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child into domestic law, the legislation should have t...
The Convener Con
Could that have been resolved if there had been better discussion and deliberation beforehand? You suggest that there was insufficient consultation prior the...
Sheriff Mackie
It might have been resolved. It is a pity that there was not more engagement.
The Convener Con
Why do you think that there was not?
Sheriff Mackie
I do not know. In recent days and weeks, there has been a markedly increased level of engagement, which I welcome. Some elements might have benefited from di...
The Convener Con
You said there has been a marked increase in engagement in recent days and weeks. Is that from Scottish Government ministers or officials? 09:45
Sheriff Mackie
Both, in the run-up to this committee meeting.
The Convener Con
Your report made a number of recommendations. As you say, some have filtered through, but the majority have not. How do you feel about the work that went int...
Sheriff Mackie
At the heart of our work in the working group and in considering the bill was listening to the voices of young care-experienced people. We really did listen ...
The Convener Con
Thank you very much—that is extremely helpful. Ms Duncan and Mr McKinlay, I understand that there are positives, and please feel free to speak about those ...
Fiona Duncan (The Promise Scotland)
We have a record of all the engagement that we have had on the bill, the conversations that we have had and the information that we have provided. Our experi...
The Convener Con
I will bring Mr McKinlay in, but your evidence is that the bill will add to the complexity, which is not particularly reassuring in relation to passing the t...
Fiona Duncan
When the care review concluded, we had identified 44 pieces of primary legislation, 19 pieces of secondary legislation and three international conventions th...
Fraser McKinlay (The Promise Scotland)
I will add a couple of comments in relation to your questions, convener, around engagement and what the review might have envisioned back in 2020. Engagemen...
The Convener Con
We want to get into a lot of those areas. We will move to questions from committee members.
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
Good morning. I thank the witnesses for the evidence that they submitted in advance of the meeting and the questions that they have answered so far. I will a...
Fraser McKinlay
I think that it will address some of them. It is striking that many responses from the organisations that work alongside care-experienced children, young peo...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
Let us move on from that discussion. Fiona Duncan, you mentioned that we will need another bill to get us to 2030. Is there a reason why everything could not...
Fiona Duncan
Yes, there is a fair reason why it could not all have been done in one bill. With a 10-year change programme, you bump into things that get in the way as you...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
Do you think that there are potentially opportunities to amend the current bill to do some of that?
Fiona Duncan
I am really determined to make the bill the best that we can get it and to ensure that it passes. Some amendments are necessary in order for that to happen.
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
Similar to the conversations that we have had, a number of organisations have said in their submissions that the aftercare provisions could go further. Other...
Fiona Duncan
Both of those things are true: the provisions could go further and there are concerns about the estimated costs. I should say that I hate the expression “aft...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
That is helpful.
Fraser McKinlay
There is no doubt that the provisions in the bill as they stand go some way towards addressing one of the big issues that the care review identified, which i...
Sheriff Mackie
I defer to Fiona Duncan and Fraser McKinlay on the wider issue around aftercare. I share Fiona’s dislike of that expression, but it is what we are using. I ...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
Thank you. I appreciate that. I had not considered that in any great detail, so it is helpful for the committee’s consideration. Do the panel members have a...