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Committee

Education, Children and Young People Committee 10 September 2025

10 Sep 2025 · S6 · Education, Children and Young People Committee
Item of business
Children (Care, Care Experience and Services Planning) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Fiona Duncan (The Promise Scotland) Watch on SPTV

We have a record of all the engagement that we have had on the bill, the conversations that we have had and the information that we have provided. Our experiences are similar to David Mackie’s. With greater conversation during the process, we might have had a different product and a different bill.

The bill is a critical step in keeping the Promise. We are at the midpoint in the 10-year timeframe that was laid out by the independent care review when it concluded in 2020. The bill presents an essential step forward, but your reflection on what we said, convener, is absolutely right.

We applied four tests. The first is how anchored the bill is in the conclusions of the independent care review. Secondly, the bill certainly offers opportunities to speed up the pace and improve performance, but how likely is it to get us over the line in 2030? It is fair to say that we will need further legislation.

There are two other tests that Fraser McKinlay can speak to better than I can. One of those is whether the bill goes far enough in getting rid of some of the barriers that are in place, and whether that would possibly benefit from legislation or building on some of the bridges of good practice and changes to the system that have taken place.

There is another test. As many of you will remember, the care review involved 5,500 people, more than half of whom were care experienced. However, from all the papers and briefings that you have seen, you will know that the Promise has been made to more than 200,000 people. Many of the people who did not take part in the independent care review have come forward to talk about some of the challenges that they see in relation to implementation. It is important for this committee and for everyone else that we listen to the new voices that have emerged.

I have a final point that builds on Sheriff Mackie’s experience. He was appointed by The Promise Scotland—by me—to run a redesign based on the conclusions that the care review had come up with on the hearings system and what it needed to do. The care review produced “The Promise”, which was the main report, and “The Pinky Promise”, which was the one that was designed for children, as some of you may remember. I would like to see the bill pass the pinky promise test and, as David Mackie has said, for children and young people and the people who rely on the legislation to understand what their rights and entitlements are. I would like them to be able to read it and to recognise what is going on and what it means for them.

I do not know whether Fraser McKinlay wants to add anything.

In the same item of business

The Convener Con
Welcome back. The next item of business is evidence, over two panels, on the Children (Care, Care Experience and Services Planning) (Scotland) Bill. I welcom...
Sheriff David Mackie (Hearings System Working Group)
Good morning. There are positive aspects to the bill and elements that are very welcome, such as the discretion that the bill proposes to give to reporters t...
The Convener Con
I am particularly interested in proposed new section 90. You have looked at legislation from the Parliament before. Have you seen that approach in the past, ...
Sheriff Mackie
Absolutely. In a year in which we have incorporated the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child into domestic law, the legislation should have t...
The Convener Con
Could that have been resolved if there had been better discussion and deliberation beforehand? You suggest that there was insufficient consultation prior the...
Sheriff Mackie
It might have been resolved. It is a pity that there was not more engagement.
The Convener Con
Why do you think that there was not?
Sheriff Mackie
I do not know. In recent days and weeks, there has been a markedly increased level of engagement, which I welcome. Some elements might have benefited from di...
The Convener Con
You said there has been a marked increase in engagement in recent days and weeks. Is that from Scottish Government ministers or officials? 09:45
Sheriff Mackie
Both, in the run-up to this committee meeting.
The Convener Con
Your report made a number of recommendations. As you say, some have filtered through, but the majority have not. How do you feel about the work that went int...
Sheriff Mackie
At the heart of our work in the working group and in considering the bill was listening to the voices of young care-experienced people. We really did listen ...
The Convener Con
Thank you very much—that is extremely helpful. Ms Duncan and Mr McKinlay, I understand that there are positives, and please feel free to speak about those ...
Fiona Duncan (The Promise Scotland)
We have a record of all the engagement that we have had on the bill, the conversations that we have had and the information that we have provided. Our experi...
The Convener Con
I will bring Mr McKinlay in, but your evidence is that the bill will add to the complexity, which is not particularly reassuring in relation to passing the t...
Fiona Duncan
When the care review concluded, we had identified 44 pieces of primary legislation, 19 pieces of secondary legislation and three international conventions th...
Fraser McKinlay (The Promise Scotland)
I will add a couple of comments in relation to your questions, convener, around engagement and what the review might have envisioned back in 2020. Engagemen...
The Convener Con
We want to get into a lot of those areas. We will move to questions from committee members.
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
Good morning. I thank the witnesses for the evidence that they submitted in advance of the meeting and the questions that they have answered so far. I will a...
Fraser McKinlay
I think that it will address some of them. It is striking that many responses from the organisations that work alongside care-experienced children, young peo...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
Let us move on from that discussion. Fiona Duncan, you mentioned that we will need another bill to get us to 2030. Is there a reason why everything could not...
Fiona Duncan
Yes, there is a fair reason why it could not all have been done in one bill. With a 10-year change programme, you bump into things that get in the way as you...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
Do you think that there are potentially opportunities to amend the current bill to do some of that?
Fiona Duncan
I am really determined to make the bill the best that we can get it and to ensure that it passes. Some amendments are necessary in order for that to happen.
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
Similar to the conversations that we have had, a number of organisations have said in their submissions that the aftercare provisions could go further. Other...
Fiona Duncan
Both of those things are true: the provisions could go further and there are concerns about the estimated costs. I should say that I hate the expression “aft...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
That is helpful.
Fraser McKinlay
There is no doubt that the provisions in the bill as they stand go some way towards addressing one of the big issues that the care review identified, which i...
Sheriff Mackie
I defer to Fiona Duncan and Fraser McKinlay on the wider issue around aftercare. I share Fiona’s dislike of that expression, but it is what we are using. I ...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
Thank you. I appreciate that. I had not considered that in any great detail, so it is helpful for the committee’s consideration. Do the panel members have a...