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Committee

Education, Children and Young People Committee 10 September 2025

10 Sep 2025 · S6 · Education, Children and Young People Committee
Item of business
Children (Care, Care Experience and Services Planning) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Sheriff Mackie Watch on SPTV

At the heart of our work in the working group and in considering the bill was listening to the voices of young care-experienced people. We really did listen to them, which led us to develop an imagined role for the chair of a children’s hearing that would be much greater and more weighty than it is now. Conspicuously avoiding any suggestion that they should be a member of any particular profession, we imagined a chair who would nonetheless be legally competent, especially in relation to human rights. We imagined a chair who can understand the impact of decisions of the children’s hearing not only on the child but on the parents and other relevant persons, and who has the confidence to say to those people, “We have heard from you and understand your concerns, but we now want to hear from the child on their own.”

I heard just this week of a case in which a mother found herself in a hearing room with the man who had abused her horribly and who had spent 20 months in jail for an assault on her. She was traumatised by the experience. In the room, she put on a brave face and everyone thought that she did fine, but she did not want to share her personal experience or personal information with him in the room. She did not want to rock the boat in case it upset him and led to some kind of reaction. She did not represent herself anywhere near as well as she might have done. In such a situation, a chair should have the confidence, first of all, to recognise the subtleties of domestic abuse and the impact of trauma. They should understand the role of an inquisitorial process and have the confidence to say, “I am leading this inquiry and the panel are supporting me in it. In recognition of the difficulty around the domestic abuse in the background here, we require the man”—the husband or partner—“to leave the room or to not be in the room at the same time as the mother.” That situation can be managed, but only by somebody who has real confidence and understanding.

We also imagined a chair who would write a full reasoned decision and not the abbreviated type of decision that is currently the norm at children’s hearings. We imagined someone who could bring together the views of panel members to produce a cohesive decision and deliver it. Furthermore, we imagined the chair having a role after the making of a compulsory supervision order, not as a supervisor or another boss for the social worker, but to receive expressions of concern if compulsory supervision orders were not being properly implemented, or if the mental health service that the panel expected to be available was not available and the order was not being implemented. The chair should have the discretion, faced with such concerns, to call for a review hearing outside the normal pattern of statutory reviews, every three months or once a year.

Two things emanated from that. One was that that role for the chair was really the product of hearing from the stakeholders across the whole children’s hearing community. We listened especially to the voices of care-experienced young people and heard about their personal journeys through the hearings system. We found ourselves devising a role for the chair that was quite an expansion of the current role. That, in turn, led us to recognise that, especially if the chair was going to be a consistent presence in that child’s journey through the hearings system, it would be difficult for that role to be fulfilled by somebody who was not doing it as a job.

That is a very brief outline of the process that we went through at the working group, which produced the recommendations in our report. What is lost in the bill is the cohesive structure of the chair’s role in particular and the issues around grounds hearings, which would have produced the transformational change that we imagined.

In the same item of business

The Convener Con
Welcome back. The next item of business is evidence, over two panels, on the Children (Care, Care Experience and Services Planning) (Scotland) Bill. I welcom...
Sheriff David Mackie (Hearings System Working Group)
Good morning. There are positive aspects to the bill and elements that are very welcome, such as the discretion that the bill proposes to give to reporters t...
The Convener Con
I am particularly interested in proposed new section 90. You have looked at legislation from the Parliament before. Have you seen that approach in the past, ...
Sheriff Mackie
Absolutely. In a year in which we have incorporated the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child into domestic law, the legislation should have t...
The Convener Con
Could that have been resolved if there had been better discussion and deliberation beforehand? You suggest that there was insufficient consultation prior the...
Sheriff Mackie
It might have been resolved. It is a pity that there was not more engagement.
The Convener Con
Why do you think that there was not?
Sheriff Mackie
I do not know. In recent days and weeks, there has been a markedly increased level of engagement, which I welcome. Some elements might have benefited from di...
The Convener Con
You said there has been a marked increase in engagement in recent days and weeks. Is that from Scottish Government ministers or officials? 09:45
Sheriff Mackie
Both, in the run-up to this committee meeting.
The Convener Con
Your report made a number of recommendations. As you say, some have filtered through, but the majority have not. How do you feel about the work that went int...
Sheriff Mackie
At the heart of our work in the working group and in considering the bill was listening to the voices of young care-experienced people. We really did listen ...
The Convener Con
Thank you very much—that is extremely helpful. Ms Duncan and Mr McKinlay, I understand that there are positives, and please feel free to speak about those ...
Fiona Duncan (The Promise Scotland)
We have a record of all the engagement that we have had on the bill, the conversations that we have had and the information that we have provided. Our experi...
The Convener Con
I will bring Mr McKinlay in, but your evidence is that the bill will add to the complexity, which is not particularly reassuring in relation to passing the t...
Fiona Duncan
When the care review concluded, we had identified 44 pieces of primary legislation, 19 pieces of secondary legislation and three international conventions th...
Fraser McKinlay (The Promise Scotland)
I will add a couple of comments in relation to your questions, convener, around engagement and what the review might have envisioned back in 2020. Engagemen...
The Convener Con
We want to get into a lot of those areas. We will move to questions from committee members.
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
Good morning. I thank the witnesses for the evidence that they submitted in advance of the meeting and the questions that they have answered so far. I will a...
Fraser McKinlay
I think that it will address some of them. It is striking that many responses from the organisations that work alongside care-experienced children, young peo...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
Let us move on from that discussion. Fiona Duncan, you mentioned that we will need another bill to get us to 2030. Is there a reason why everything could not...
Fiona Duncan
Yes, there is a fair reason why it could not all have been done in one bill. With a 10-year change programme, you bump into things that get in the way as you...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
Do you think that there are potentially opportunities to amend the current bill to do some of that?
Fiona Duncan
I am really determined to make the bill the best that we can get it and to ensure that it passes. Some amendments are necessary in order for that to happen.
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
Similar to the conversations that we have had, a number of organisations have said in their submissions that the aftercare provisions could go further. Other...
Fiona Duncan
Both of those things are true: the provisions could go further and there are concerns about the estimated costs. I should say that I hate the expression “aft...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
That is helpful.
Fraser McKinlay
There is no doubt that the provisions in the bill as they stand go some way towards addressing one of the big issues that the care review identified, which i...
Sheriff Mackie
I defer to Fiona Duncan and Fraser McKinlay on the wider issue around aftercare. I share Fiona’s dislike of that expression, but it is what we are using. I ...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
Thank you. I appreciate that. I had not considered that in any great detail, so it is helpful for the committee’s consideration. Do the panel members have a...