Committee
Education, Children and Young People Committee 10 September 2025
10 Sep 2025 · S6 · Education, Children and Young People Committee
Item of business
Children (Care, Care Experience and Services Planning) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Welcome back. The next item of business is evidence, over two panels, on the Children (Care, Care Experience and Services Planning) (Scotland) Bill. I welcome our first panel. Sheriff David Mackie is chairperson of the hearings system working group, Fiona Duncan is independent strategic adviser to The Promise Scotland, and Fraser McKinlay is chief executive at The Promise Scotland. Thank you very much for joining us today. I apologise for our lateness in getting to you—I know that you sat through the previous session.
I will kick off the questions, which I will direct to Sheriff Mackie first of all. There are positive points in your submission on the bill, but there are also some criticisms—that is a theme throughout the submissions. Your criticisms are quite stark. You speak about the bill lacking ambition. You state:
“Some … provisions seem unnecessarily complex to the point of being, at times, unintelligible and inaccessible to anyone who is not a lawyer.”
You also speak about the bill being a “Lost opportunity”.
You can talk about some of the positives if you want to, but I particularly want to look at what we as a committee need to scrutinise and what deficiencies you see in the bill.
In the same item of business
The Convener
Con
Welcome back. The next item of business is evidence, over two panels, on the Children (Care, Care Experience and Services Planning) (Scotland) Bill. I welcom...
Sheriff David Mackie (Hearings System Working Group)
Good morning. There are positive aspects to the bill and elements that are very welcome, such as the discretion that the bill proposes to give to reporters t...
The Convener
Con
I am particularly interested in proposed new section 90. You have looked at legislation from the Parliament before. Have you seen that approach in the past, ...
Sheriff Mackie
Absolutely. In a year in which we have incorporated the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child into domestic law, the legislation should have t...
The Convener
Con
Could that have been resolved if there had been better discussion and deliberation beforehand? You suggest that there was insufficient consultation prior the...
Sheriff Mackie
It might have been resolved. It is a pity that there was not more engagement.
The Convener
Con
Why do you think that there was not?
Sheriff Mackie
I do not know. In recent days and weeks, there has been a markedly increased level of engagement, which I welcome. Some elements might have benefited from di...
The Convener
Con
You said there has been a marked increase in engagement in recent days and weeks. Is that from Scottish Government ministers or officials? 09:45
Sheriff Mackie
Both, in the run-up to this committee meeting.
The Convener
Con
Your report made a number of recommendations. As you say, some have filtered through, but the majority have not. How do you feel about the work that went int...
Sheriff Mackie
At the heart of our work in the working group and in considering the bill was listening to the voices of young care-experienced people. We really did listen ...
The Convener
Con
Thank you very much—that is extremely helpful. Ms Duncan and Mr McKinlay, I understand that there are positives, and please feel free to speak about those ...
Fiona Duncan (The Promise Scotland)
We have a record of all the engagement that we have had on the bill, the conversations that we have had and the information that we have provided. Our experi...
The Convener
Con
I will bring Mr McKinlay in, but your evidence is that the bill will add to the complexity, which is not particularly reassuring in relation to passing the t...
Fiona Duncan
When the care review concluded, we had identified 44 pieces of primary legislation, 19 pieces of secondary legislation and three international conventions th...
Fraser McKinlay (The Promise Scotland)
I will add a couple of comments in relation to your questions, convener, around engagement and what the review might have envisioned back in 2020. Engagemen...
The Convener
Con
We want to get into a lot of those areas. We will move to questions from committee members.
Pam Duncan-Glancy
Lab
Good morning. I thank the witnesses for the evidence that they submitted in advance of the meeting and the questions that they have answered so far. I will a...
Fraser McKinlay
I think that it will address some of them. It is striking that many responses from the organisations that work alongside care-experienced children, young peo...
Pam Duncan-Glancy
Lab
Let us move on from that discussion. Fiona Duncan, you mentioned that we will need another bill to get us to 2030. Is there a reason why everything could not...
Fiona Duncan
Yes, there is a fair reason why it could not all have been done in one bill. With a 10-year change programme, you bump into things that get in the way as you...
Pam Duncan-Glancy
Lab
Do you think that there are potentially opportunities to amend the current bill to do some of that?
Fiona Duncan
I am really determined to make the bill the best that we can get it and to ensure that it passes. Some amendments are necessary in order for that to happen.
Pam Duncan-Glancy
Lab
Similar to the conversations that we have had, a number of organisations have said in their submissions that the aftercare provisions could go further. Other...
Fiona Duncan
Both of those things are true: the provisions could go further and there are concerns about the estimated costs. I should say that I hate the expression “aft...
Pam Duncan-Glancy
Lab
That is helpful.
Fraser McKinlay
There is no doubt that the provisions in the bill as they stand go some way towards addressing one of the big issues that the care review identified, which i...
Sheriff Mackie
I defer to Fiona Duncan and Fraser McKinlay on the wider issue around aftercare. I share Fiona’s dislike of that expression, but it is what we are using. I ...
Pam Duncan-Glancy
Lab
Thank you. I appreciate that. I had not considered that in any great detail, so it is helpful for the committee’s consideration. Do the panel members have a...