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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 10 September 2025

10 Sep 2025 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Scotland’s Finances

Today’s debate has turned into the usual constitutional battle, as these things do, but the Parliament needs to have an honest and grown-up conversation about the reality of Scotland’s finances, and I would like to think that we can do so. I say that not as someone taking a constitutional or political point of view but as a member of the Public Audit Committee, which is a great committee because we get sight of and scrutinise all the numbers, many of which have been quoted by speakers in the debate. We look at the numbers objectively and fairly, as does Audit Scotland.

We are talking not only about figures on a balance sheet but about people. When we look at the state of Scotland’s finances, we are talking about whether we have enough schoolteachers, whether people with mental health problems or additional support needs are being helped back into the workplace and whether there is enough money to build new ferries for our island communities or enough to fund outdoor education. Apparently, there is never enough money to do it all, but the numbers are serious, and the Conservatives are right to bring them to the Parliament’s attention today.

By 2030, there will be a £4.7 billion funding gap. That is the Scottish Fiscal Commission’s own number; it is not a made-up political number for a Daily Mail headline but a real, independently forecast number. The Government needs to have a harsh look at the reality, because it is in denial about the figures.

In the motion, another interesting point that I agree with is about scrutiny. I have a lot of respect for Audit Scotland’s role, but its powers are somewhat clipped at the moment, and I want to see them expanded. For example, there should be mandatory deadlines for ministerial responses to Audit Scotland’s section 22 reports. There should be stronger enforcement powers, in particular when issues of poor performance or financial mismanagement have been identified. I also want the Parliament’s committees to have enhanced scrutiny powers to ensure that any recommendations that they make actually lead to reform, because too many reports just sit on ministers’ shelves.

Too many projects have gone massively over budget. The new ferries were supposed to cost less than £100 million; the bill is now sitting at more than £400 million. What could the Government have done with that extra £300 million? What extra public services could it have supported with it? HMP Glasgow is 10 times over budget—the figure sits at nearly £1 billion of spending. We can argue about the reasons why that has happened, but think of the money that has been wasted on those inflationary costs. The A9 is already more than £100 million over budget. I suspect that that figure will rise massively, if it ever gets completed. We cannot blame all those costs on inflation, because had the projects been delivered on time—when inflation was incredibly low and money was cheap to borrow—it would not have mattered.

We need to improve Scotland’s productivity, which grew by only 1 per cent each year from 2008 to 2023. That is important because lack of economic activity affects how much money the Government has to spend. Taking more than £3 billion in additional tax revenues due to tax differentials north of the border has resulted in only just over £600 million of cash being available for the Government to spend. That is 20 per cent—20p in every extra pound that is paid by Scots. We have to look at that properly.

We also need to look at spend. The welfare budget is sitting at more than £6 billion and is due to rise to £9 billion. At the minute, it is 15 per cent of the entire budget, and it will rise. The health and social care budget is sitting at around 40 per cent of the entire budget. If we put those two areas together, 70 per cent of Scotland’s budget will be spent on two portfolios. Where does that leave education, transport, preventative healthcare and all the other measures? It is about time that we got people back into the workforce by supporting those who need it most.

The reality is that there is a £4.7 billion gap, productivity is lagging, and we are spending more than we are getting in income. That has to be addressed. We cannot talk, argue or borrow our way out of the problem. We will have to sit down as grown-ups in the room and agree a way out of it.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-18779, in the name of Murdo Fraser, on improving Scotland’s finances. I invite those members who wish to ...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
It is my great pleasure to open the debate on improving Scotland’s finances—an ambition that I am sure we all share across the chamber. To help to inform th...
The Minister for Public Finance (Ivan McKee) SNP
Will the member give way?
Murdo Fraser Con
I am happy to give way to Mr McKee, who will explain to us where that £13 billion would come from.
Ivan McKee SNP
Murdo Fraser is barely a minute into his opening remarks and he has completely misrepresented what GERS is. He should know that it is very clearly Scotland’s...
Murdo Fraser Con
Mr McKee has let the cat out of the bag: he has just said that we would have the opportunity to raise more money. I will give way to him again if he can give...
Ivan McKee SNP
The whole point is that we would not have to raise that amount of extra money, because we would not be paying for significant parts of the Whitehall machiner...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I will give you the time back, Mr Fraser.
Murdo Fraser Con
That was a U-turn from Mr McKee within 10 seconds. He stood up and said that we would raise the money, but he has changed his mind completely in the course o...
Ben Macpherson (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
The member will be concluding shortly.
Murdo Fraser Con
I apologise to Mr Macpherson. Thirdly, we need proper public service reform to see where savings can be made. Mr McKee promises that he can find £1 billion-...
The Minister for Public Finance (Ivan McKee) SNP
I thank Murdo Fraser for bringing attention to the fact that the Scottish Government has been constrained for many years by the austerity measures of the UK ...
Murdo Fraser Con
The GERS figures that I referred to earlier show that public sector spending in Scotland is now equivalent to 52 per cent of gross domestic product. If that ...
Ivan McKee SNP
What has happened over those years is clear, and nobody would deny that we have been under those austerity measures. As I said before, the whole point of ind...
Stephen Kerr (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
You have to.
Ivan McKee SNP
I hear Conservative members shouting that we have to do that. Of course we do. The point is that we do it—we deliver that every year—which requires us to man...
Craig Hoy (South Scotland) (Con) Con
The minister says that he can balance the budget between now and the end of the decade by saving £1 billion in public expenditure through cutting waste and r...
Ivan McKee SNP
The reality is that we are going to deliver that. If the member wants to know where the number comes from, it comes from the numbers that we published last y...
Michael Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lab
What would the minister say to Paul Johnson of the Institute for Fiscal Studies, who said that under no circumstances could what the UK Government is doing b...
Ivan McKee SNP
I have just clearly said that, if our spending in Scotland had been growing at the same rate as UK Government spending was growing, in total, we would have £...
Michael Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Over the past 14 months, the UK Labour Government has decisively ended austerity and has already invested an additional £5.2 billion in Scotland. The UK spen...
Lorna Slater (Lothian) (Green) Green
Every year, when the GERS figures are published, unionist parties treat them as though they are some kind of gotcha. They claim that the numbers prove that S...
Murdo Fraser Con
Will Lorna Slater take an intervention?
Lorna Slater Green
I will make some progress. The UK is one of the most unequal countries in Europe. Wealth is concentrated in very few hands, while families across Scotland s...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
Will Ms Slater take an intervention?
Lorna Slater Green
I will carry on. Nearly 1.7 million children are affected by the two-child benefit cap. That policy has pushed about 350,000 children into poverty and 700,0...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
You need to bring your remarks to a close now, Ms Slater.
Lorna Slater Green
We can invest in public services. We can make Scotland a fairer and greener country when it is an independent country. 15:15
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (LD) LD
Today’s debate has turned into the usual constitutional battle, as these things do, but the Parliament needs to have an honest and grown-up conversation abou...