Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 10 September 2025
10 Sep 2025 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Scotland’s Finances
It is my great pleasure to open the debate on improving Scotland’s finances—an ambition that I am sure we all share across the chamber.
To help to inform the debate, I note that, over the past few weeks, we have had two significant publications highlighting the state of public finances in Scotland. Just last month, we had from the Scottish Government the annual “Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland” report, which sets out what is, in effect, an income and expenditure analysis not just for the Scottish Government but for the totality of public spending in Scotland. The messages from that report are stark. The net fiscal deficit for Scotland now stands at £26.5 billion, which represents the gap between the amount of money that is raised here in taxes and the total that is actually spent. That figure represents 11.7 per cent of gross domestic product—twice the United Kingdom level.
In practical terms, that means that if Scotland were to become an independent country, the Government of the day would have to find around £13 billion, either in tax rises or in public spending, just to mitigate the current level of UK fiscal deficit—
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing)
SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-18779, in the name of Murdo Fraser, on improving Scotland’s finances. I invite those members who wish to ...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
It is my great pleasure to open the debate on improving Scotland’s finances—an ambition that I am sure we all share across the chamber. To help to inform th...
The Minister for Public Finance (Ivan McKee)
SNP
Will the member give way?
Murdo Fraser
Con
I am happy to give way to Mr McKee, who will explain to us where that £13 billion would come from.
Ivan McKee
SNP
Murdo Fraser is barely a minute into his opening remarks and he has completely misrepresented what GERS is. He should know that it is very clearly Scotland’s...
Murdo Fraser
Con
Mr McKee has let the cat out of the bag: he has just said that we would have the opportunity to raise more money. I will give way to him again if he can give...
Ivan McKee
SNP
The whole point is that we would not have to raise that amount of extra money, because we would not be paying for significant parts of the Whitehall machiner...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
SNP
I will give you the time back, Mr Fraser.
Murdo Fraser
Con
That was a U-turn from Mr McKee within 10 seconds. He stood up and said that we would raise the money, but he has changed his mind completely in the course o...
Ben Macpherson (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
The Deputy Presiding Officer
SNP
The member will be concluding shortly.
Murdo Fraser
Con
I apologise to Mr Macpherson. Thirdly, we need proper public service reform to see where savings can be made. Mr McKee promises that he can find £1 billion-...
The Minister for Public Finance (Ivan McKee)
SNP
I thank Murdo Fraser for bringing attention to the fact that the Scottish Government has been constrained for many years by the austerity measures of the UK ...
Murdo Fraser
Con
The GERS figures that I referred to earlier show that public sector spending in Scotland is now equivalent to 52 per cent of gross domestic product. If that ...
Ivan McKee
SNP
What has happened over those years is clear, and nobody would deny that we have been under those austerity measures. As I said before, the whole point of ind...
Stephen Kerr (Central Scotland) (Con)
Con
You have to.
Ivan McKee
SNP
I hear Conservative members shouting that we have to do that. Of course we do. The point is that we do it—we deliver that every year—which requires us to man...
Craig Hoy (South Scotland) (Con)
Con
The minister says that he can balance the budget between now and the end of the decade by saving £1 billion in public expenditure through cutting waste and r...
Ivan McKee
SNP
The reality is that we are going to deliver that. If the member wants to know where the number comes from, it comes from the numbers that we published last y...
Michael Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
What would the minister say to Paul Johnson of the Institute for Fiscal Studies, who said that under no circumstances could what the UK Government is doing b...
Ivan McKee
SNP
I have just clearly said that, if our spending in Scotland had been growing at the same rate as UK Government spending was growing, in total, we would have £...
Michael Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
Over the past 14 months, the UK Labour Government has decisively ended austerity and has already invested an additional £5.2 billion in Scotland. The UK spen...
Lorna Slater (Lothian) (Green)
Green
Every year, when the GERS figures are published, unionist parties treat them as though they are some kind of gotcha. They claim that the numbers prove that S...
Murdo Fraser
Con
Will Lorna Slater take an intervention?
Lorna Slater
Green
I will make some progress. The UK is one of the most unequal countries in Europe. Wealth is concentrated in very few hands, while families across Scotland s...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
Will Ms Slater take an intervention?
Lorna Slater
Green
I will carry on. Nearly 1.7 million children are affected by the two-child benefit cap. That policy has pushed about 350,000 children into poverty and 700,0...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
SNP
You need to bring your remarks to a close now, Ms Slater.
Lorna Slater
Green
We can invest in public services. We can make Scotland a fairer and greener country when it is an independent country. 15:15
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (LD)
LD
Today’s debate has turned into the usual constitutional battle, as these things do, but the Parliament needs to have an honest and grown-up conversation abou...