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Committee

Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee 25 June 2025

25 Jun 2025 · S6 · Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee
Item of business
Continued Petitions
Rape Charges (Under-16s) (PE2064)
The Lord Advocate Watch on SPTV

That is a very good point. There are multiple ways that that could be answered. I believe that the police service of Scotland is fundamentally committed to the proper investigation and detection of crime and seeking to ensure that our communities are safe. I believe that it responds where it can to the challenges of the digital age. In so far as prosecutors are concerned, we prosecute many very difficult cases that involve the presentation of a vast variety of types of evidence that emanate from digital devices.

One example is a case that I prosecuted many years ago, regarding what was at that time the largest paedophile ring in the United Kingdom. A group of eight men were prosecuted for committing crimes against children. For the very first time in the history of Scotland, we prosecuted those men for conspiring to sexually abuse children because we were able to detect them as a result of tracing their actions through their use of the internet and the sharing of indecent images over their internet sites. Through good policing, we were able to secure evidence from America that related to the contents of their inboxes, to secure evidence from their digital devices and to present all of that in court to secure convictions of all eight accused. Two of the most serious offenders were convicted of committing a sexual act on a baby. The baby was identified through a digital image that we secured from the Hotmail inbox of another accused. We were able to trace that digital image through expert evidence that got the thumbnail of the digital image. We connected it to the metadata embedded in the accused’s own computer and also used very basic policing, through hand identification, to link an image of the accused’s hand to the digital image that we recovered that showed him sexually abusing an infant.

We have for a long time challenged ourselves in the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service to constantly try to revisit how offending is taking place, with what methods and in what areas and also to understand how all that impacts on the children in our society.

We can always think about how we adapt to changes in technology, but we must always fundamentally remember what the basic problem is. The basic problem of violence against women and girls is the deeply misogynistic attitudes that are held within society and societal norms that allow the wide-scale abuse of women and children to happen in plain sight without the appropriate response from society to deal with it. I go back to what I said at the beginning, that societal response is essential to the enormous problems that we are talking about.

In the same item of business

The Convener Con
Our specific reason for having this additional committee meeting is to take evidence on youth crime, and we have two panels with whom we hope to be able to e...
Maurice Golden (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
I, too, welcome the panel to the meeting. Can you outline the approach that is taken when serious violent or sexual offences committed by children under the ...
Alistair Hogg (Scottish Children’s Reporter Administration)
I am happy to start, if that is okay. Good morning, committee. I guess I should start by referring to the Lord Advocate’s guidelines. Obviously, the Lord Ad...
Maurice Golden Con
Yes, perhaps. However, I wonder whether we can hear from the Lord Advocate. I am aware, too, of the recent statement of prosecution policy, Lord Advocate, so...
The Lord Advocate (Rt Hon Dorothy Bain KC)
With regard to the cases that are reported by the police to the Crown Office, the police operate under guidelines that I have issued to determine whether the...
Maurice Golden Con
Lord Advocate, it strikes me that the presumption against prosecution in these cases is perhaps out of kilter with public opinion. After all, the scope of wh...
The Lord Advocate
It is a rebuttable presumption. As I have said, the more serious the offence, the greater the likelihood of a prosecution, and the category of cases that you...
Maurice Golden Con
But the presumption is that that would happen only in the most extreme examples, and the scope in that respect is seriously tight. Is that the case?
The Lord Advocate
No, I do not think that we could set such a test with regard to the most serious examples. When we considered the issue that was raised of decisions to diver...
Maurice Golden Con
With regard to diversion from prosecution, what support is available under compulsory supervision orders? Are there sufficient resources across the whole of ...
The Lord Advocate
On the question of what happens with a child under a compulsory supervision order who is referred to the children’s reporter for an allegation of rape, perha...
Maurice Golden Con
I might come back to you on that because, in setting the policy, you will still be required to know what happens on the other side, even though that is not w...
The Lord Advocate
Of course.
Maurice Golden Con
Mr Hogg?
Alistair Hogg
The collaboration between our two organisations is absolutely comprehensive. In every situation in which there is a joint report, information is exchanged an...
Maurice Golden Con
Thank you.
The Convener Con
I want to turn the conversation around to the victims. I should say that one thing has changed over the lifetime of this Parliament—well, actually, two thing...
The Lord Advocate
There are a number of aspects to your question, Mr Carlaw, and I hope that I can cover them in my response. I understand your sense of profound change in th...
The Convener Con
I am grateful for your expression of empathy with the victims and the efforts that you have been making to progress changes. On victims, you referred to the...
The Lord Advocate
Given what you have described to me, it sounds as if the events that happened to that child were reported to the police. The police have published guidelines...
Alistair Hogg
Of course. I know that you raised other issues, Mr Carlaw, but on support, protection and information for victims, a lot of these issues were discussed durin...
The Convener Con
The earliest petition was submitted in 2022, but the evidence that we took subsequently was to illustrate the issues raised by the petitions rather than abou...
The Lord Advocate
I think that Ms Ross knows about the case that you were talking about, Mr Carlaw, and she would be able to fill in the gap with information that I was unawar...
The Convener Con
That would be helpful, as long as we keep it all very anonymised, because we are trying to talk in general terms without identifying anybody.
The Lord Advocate
It might just help to hear what happened, without naming individuals.
Stephanie Ross (Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service)
Good morning. Thank you, Lord Advocate. I will try to just fill in the gaps, if that would be helpful. I am familiar with the circumstances of the particular...
The Lord Advocate
There was a conviction.
Stephanie Ross
There was a conviction.
The Convener Con
Thank you very much. When we began, I was struck that, in response to Mr Golden, you made the reasonable point that prosecution is just one part of the way i...
The Lord Advocate
That is a very good point. There are multiple ways that that could be answered. I believe that the police service of Scotland is fundamentally committed to t...