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Committee

Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee 25 June 2025

25 Jun 2025 · S6 · Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee
Item of business
Continued Petitions
Rape Charges (Under-16s) (PE2064)

Our specific reason for having this additional committee meeting is to take evidence on youth crime, and we have two panels with whom we hope to be able to explore the issues. The session will be informed by our consideration of two separate petitions with which we have been actively engaged since 2022. The first petition is PE1947, on addressing Scotland’s culture of youth violence, and as part of our evidence taking for that petition, we have undertaken external visits and met various groups outside of Parliament. The second is PE2064, on ensuring that under-16s charged with rape are treated as adults in the criminal justice system.

I am delighted to say that our first panel is with us to assist with our consideration of the issues. We are joined by the Rt Hon Dorothy Bain KC, the Lord Advocate, whom it is our great pleasure to have back at the committee; Alistair Hogg, head of practice and policy, Scottish Children’s Reporter Administration; and Stephanie Ross, principal procurator fiscal depute in the policy unit, Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service. A warm welcome to you all and thank you very much for making the time to join us this morning.

I will start by setting out some of the context, which I have already referred to. The committee undertook a considerable amount of work on the petition on addressing youth violence, but as we went along, we were struck by similar concerns that were being raised in parallel on the petition on rape committed by under-16s. On the youth violence petition, we took evidence from Police Scotland, the Violence Reduction Unit and No Knives, Better Lives as well as a number of academics and, most notably, we visited young people and their families who had been impacted by violence in their own communities.

One girl to whom we spoke was attacked when she was just 14. I do not think that any of us who were at that meeting will forget it; indeed, it is, I suppose, not normal for politicians necessarily to be confronted by that level of direct experience. Perhaps others will say that it is a story that they have heard before, but we were left profoundly moved. The girl was left at the age of 14 with post-traumatic stress disorder; she cannot leave the house without her mum; and she has attempted to end her life on two occasions.

In our evidence taking, we might well go into some of what we were told at the time, but I should make it clear that the young girl in question and her family felt let down that the justice system did not protect her and that things were just as bad after the attack. She did not feel that there were appropriate consequences for the perpetrator, who was still very much in the community and was able, along with their family, to cause her further harm.

The petitioner for PE2064, on rape committed by under-16s, has shared her view that there should be more consequences for the crime of rape committed by under-16s. She feels that the perpetrator will be free to continue attacking more people because, as she sees it, there is just no deterrence in place.

The committee understands that the system avoids criminalising children where possible. However, we remain concerned about how the most serious cases of violence and sexual offending are addressed and, crucially, how victims can meaningfully pursue justice and feel safe in their communities again. As a final comment, I would say that we were particularly struck by the organisation of some of the violence that we saw, with individuals being summoned for false reasons to destinations, only to find multiple people standing present and ready to film what was about to take place. Those victims were then abandoned without any regard whatever for their wellbeing or safety and left in an extremely difficult and dangerous condition. That was very difficult to hear.

I have been told that there has been no request by the witnesses to make any additional statements, so we will move straight to questions. I will come to the evidence that we heard from children later, but I will invite Maurice Golden to begin the questioning.

In the same item of business

The Convener Con
Our specific reason for having this additional committee meeting is to take evidence on youth crime, and we have two panels with whom we hope to be able to e...
Maurice Golden (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
I, too, welcome the panel to the meeting. Can you outline the approach that is taken when serious violent or sexual offences committed by children under the ...
Alistair Hogg (Scottish Children’s Reporter Administration)
I am happy to start, if that is okay. Good morning, committee. I guess I should start by referring to the Lord Advocate’s guidelines. Obviously, the Lord Ad...
Maurice Golden Con
Yes, perhaps. However, I wonder whether we can hear from the Lord Advocate. I am aware, too, of the recent statement of prosecution policy, Lord Advocate, so...
The Lord Advocate (Rt Hon Dorothy Bain KC)
With regard to the cases that are reported by the police to the Crown Office, the police operate under guidelines that I have issued to determine whether the...
Maurice Golden Con
Lord Advocate, it strikes me that the presumption against prosecution in these cases is perhaps out of kilter with public opinion. After all, the scope of wh...
The Lord Advocate
It is a rebuttable presumption. As I have said, the more serious the offence, the greater the likelihood of a prosecution, and the category of cases that you...
Maurice Golden Con
But the presumption is that that would happen only in the most extreme examples, and the scope in that respect is seriously tight. Is that the case?
The Lord Advocate
No, I do not think that we could set such a test with regard to the most serious examples. When we considered the issue that was raised of decisions to diver...
Maurice Golden Con
With regard to diversion from prosecution, what support is available under compulsory supervision orders? Are there sufficient resources across the whole of ...
The Lord Advocate
On the question of what happens with a child under a compulsory supervision order who is referred to the children’s reporter for an allegation of rape, perha...
Maurice Golden Con
I might come back to you on that because, in setting the policy, you will still be required to know what happens on the other side, even though that is not w...
The Lord Advocate
Of course.
Maurice Golden Con
Mr Hogg?
Alistair Hogg
The collaboration between our two organisations is absolutely comprehensive. In every situation in which there is a joint report, information is exchanged an...
Maurice Golden Con
Thank you.
The Convener Con
I want to turn the conversation around to the victims. I should say that one thing has changed over the lifetime of this Parliament—well, actually, two thing...
The Lord Advocate
There are a number of aspects to your question, Mr Carlaw, and I hope that I can cover them in my response. I understand your sense of profound change in th...
The Convener Con
I am grateful for your expression of empathy with the victims and the efforts that you have been making to progress changes. On victims, you referred to the...
The Lord Advocate
Given what you have described to me, it sounds as if the events that happened to that child were reported to the police. The police have published guidelines...
Alistair Hogg
Of course. I know that you raised other issues, Mr Carlaw, but on support, protection and information for victims, a lot of these issues were discussed durin...
The Convener Con
The earliest petition was submitted in 2022, but the evidence that we took subsequently was to illustrate the issues raised by the petitions rather than abou...
The Lord Advocate
I think that Ms Ross knows about the case that you were talking about, Mr Carlaw, and she would be able to fill in the gap with information that I was unawar...
The Convener Con
That would be helpful, as long as we keep it all very anonymised, because we are trying to talk in general terms without identifying anybody.
The Lord Advocate
It might just help to hear what happened, without naming individuals.
Stephanie Ross (Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service)
Good morning. Thank you, Lord Advocate. I will try to just fill in the gaps, if that would be helpful. I am familiar with the circumstances of the particular...
The Lord Advocate
There was a conviction.
Stephanie Ross
There was a conviction.
The Convener Con
Thank you very much. When we began, I was struck that, in response to Mr Golden, you made the reasonable point that prosecution is just one part of the way i...
The Lord Advocate
That is a very good point. There are multiple ways that that could be answered. I believe that the police service of Scotland is fundamentally committed to t...