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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 18 June 2025

18 Jun 2025 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Defence Sector (Economic Contribution)
Mountain, Edward Con Highlands and Islands Watch on SPTV

I am delighted to stand up and speak in the debate, even if it is to highlight some of the incredible things that I hear other parties saying. First, I put on the record that the MOD is a very important contributor to Scotland. It invests huge amounts of money—more than £2 billion a year—and our arms exports and weapons exports are incredibly important. I do not need to point out to members that Lossiemouth, which is in the region that I represent, has just benefited from a Boeing investment of more than £100 million.

I am sorry that Daniel Johnson is not in the chamber, but I recognise what he said about the importance of investing in our armed services and what the Labour Party is doing. I was pleased to hear him say that because, for too long, our armed services have been cut down. When I was a soldier, there were 138,000 soldiers in Germany; now, in the UK, fewer than 60,000 can be deployed. I am also pleased that the Scottish Labour amendment identifies that, without the type 26 frigate programme, Ferguson Marine would not be able to rely on having a future.

I struggle with the SNP’s policy, which is that the party supports diversifying from defence expenditure and defence industries but likes defence. It seems to me that you cannot have the two.

I would be delighted if Lorna Slater asked AI to articulate the Scottish Greens’ policies, because they seem completely incoherent. It seems that they support delivering first-field dressings to Ukraine but not giving soldiers the ability to defend themselves on the battlefield, which is ludicrous.

Let me be entirely clear: I believe that the first duty of every Government is ensuring the security of the country and the population. That will not be achieved by giving hugs and kisses to those who threaten us.

Let me be clear that the only place in the world that has benefited from a flower power revolution is Portugal, in 1974, when soldiers put carnations in their guns to prove that they were not going to fire at civilians. Every other country has to use bullets to defend itself and fight against aggression. Countries need weapons to defend themselves, and they need to be confident that their politicians will give them the ability to defend themselves.

In very short and simple terms, our armed forces need to walk softly but carry a stick in order to defend us against the growing turbulence across the world. One has only to look at Iran, North Korea, Russia and China as central places where division is being sowed.

I highlight some of the comments that we have heard about Ukraine. I will quote Lorna Slater and see whether she will stand up to defend this. On 5 March 2025, she said:

“Support for Ukraine is wide and deep. Not since the end of the cold war have Europe’s values been tested as they are being tested now. In the face of Russia’s aggression, however, we are resolute.”—[Official Report, 5 March 2025; c 93.]

We are resolute, but we do not seem to be resolute in providing Ukraine with the ability to defend itself. That is a completely mixed message.

John Swinney stood before us and said:

“Here in Scotland, we will, forever, stand with Ukraine.”—[Official Report, 4 March 2025; c 13.]

We will stand with Ukraine, but we will not defend it or allow it to defend itself.

Those are the sorts of mixed messages that we get. I have lots of other examples of that for lots of SNP members who have not turned up to the debate. The SNP wishes to diversify rather than defend the country. Let me say, as an ex-soldier, that that is pure hypocrisy and not understandable.

16:42  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-17981, in the name of Murdo Fraser, on recognising the economic contribution of Scotland’s defence sector...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
We are continually being invited by the Deputy First Minister to be positive about the Scottish economy and to celebrate success stories—indeed, we just hear...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
Murdo Fraser is absolutely right. Does that situation not also stand in contrast with the attacks on our communications infrastructure in the North Sea, and ...
Murdo Fraser Con
Yes. I welcome the fact that the UK Government has stepped in, because those jobs and that investment would have gone elsewhere. Steve Carlier, president of ...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Gaelic (Kate Forbes) SNP
I welcome the opportunity to speak to the motion. I will try to cover quite a lot of ground in a limited time, but I will begin by stating plainly that Scotl...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
Kate Forbes SNP
Members will appreciate that I think that my time has just been cut again and I want to cover quite a lot of space.
Jackie Baillie Lab
On a point of order, Deputy Presiding Officer, could you give an indication of whether the cabinet secretary’s time has been cut again?
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I can confirm that the cabinet secretary’s time has not been cut, but it is still up to five minutes. I can give you the time back for that point of order, D...
Kate Forbes SNP
My apologies to Jackie Baillie. I had been anticipating slightly longer, so I am going to try to compress my comments; unfortunately, I now have even less ti...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
I welcome the statement that the Deputy First Minister made at the beginning of her speech underlining the importance of the defence sector. It is not the fi...
Edward Mountain (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Daniel Johnson Lab
I am very happy to do so, but it will need to be brief.
Edward Mountain Con
I will keep it very brief. I will quote Patrick Harvie, which I do not do often: “Scotland has strong solidarity with Ukraine and is outraged at those who w...
Daniel Johnson Lab
I think that we are not taking our own defence seriously by not considering what we need to do in terms of restocking our munitions. My point is highlighted ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
You need to conclude—
Daniel Johnson Lab
—we need to invest in it. I move amendment S6M-17981.1, to insert at end: “; welcomes the confirmation from the UK Government that it will provide the fund...
Lorna Slater (Lothian) (Green) Green
As per our position in the previous debate, the Scottish Greens believe in progressive taxation as a way to pool our collective resources and invest in the t...
Jackson Carlaw (Eastwood) (Con) Con
Will Lorna Slater take an intervention?
Lorna Slater Green
I will take interventions during my closing speech. The Scottish Government offered to review Scottish Enterprise’s human rights checks. While that has been...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
I get slightly offended when people imply that we cannot be in favour of strong defences and in favour of a moral and ethical foreign policy. I think that we...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
We move to the open debate. 16:28
Stephen Kerr (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
When the SNP is up to its neck in muck and bullets—although that might not be an appropriate term, given its attitude towards bullets—it sends for Kate Forbe...
Daniel Johnson Lab
Does the member agree that the view that we should seek to defend our country should be a patriotic view, regardless of our view on the constitution? Our vie...
Stephen Kerr Con
I could not agree more with Daniel Johnson. It is about a patriotic duty. It might not be fashionable in the SNP, or in the Scottish Greens, to talk about pa...
Gordon MacDonald (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) SNP
Scotland’s defence sector, which covers aerospace, defence and security, is valued at £3.2 billion and directly supports more than 33,000 jobs. I acknowledge...
Edward Mountain (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
I am delighted to stand up and speak in the debate, even if it is to highlight some of the incredible things that I hear other parties saying. First, I put o...
Paul Sweeney (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
It is a pleasure to speak in the debate, and I second the amendment in the name of my colleague Mr Johnson. It is a very sensible amendment and I encourage t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
You need to conclude.
Paul Sweeney Lab
That is fairly axiomatic.