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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 18 June 2025

18 Jun 2025 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Defence Sector (Economic Contribution)

I get slightly offended when people imply that we cannot be in favour of strong defences and in favour of a moral and ethical foreign policy. I think that we can do both, and the Liberal Democrats have said that we can do both. Ed Davey has made it clear that we should suspend arms exports to Israel. Not everybody will agree with that position, but we have made it clear from the beginning that Israel has gone too far.

However, as Ed Davey has also made clear, we are in favour of having a strong defence back home, because we are on the north-west frontier of Europe. We are and will continue to be a key member of NATO, and that will be important for dealing with the threat of Russia, which provokes our defences almost every day of the week. We cannot pretend that, somehow, we are in a lazy backwater. We must have strong defences in this country. I favour that approach.

That leads me to the SNP’s position, which is confusing. I have listened to Angus Robertson for years. I listened to him when he was at Westminster, when he would talk endlessly about the defence underspend in Scotland. He put a number on that—in 2011, he said that £5.6 billion less was being spent in Scotland than he believed the population share should have been, implying that the UK should have been spending more in Scotland.

We then had, for a number of years, an SNP position that was in favour of diversification away from defence products and against munitions. We get a slightly different position today, which is a bit more sympathetic in tone, but, fundamentally, is exactly the same position, which favours diversification and is against munitions. Even so, the SNP position is for Scotland to remain a member of NATO if it ever becomes an independent country. That is utterly confusing.

If we are to have any hope of getting any of the coming investment into Scotland, we need to clarify that. We need certainty not only for businesses and those who are seeking to invest but for those who are seeking to branch out into a new career or train for the first time. If they want to know whether to go into the defence sector, they need certainty on there being jobs and opportunities in it.

We need to have clarity, because whatever the strengths and weaknesses of the Labour UK Government, one thing is for sure: it will be spending a significantly increased sum of money on defence. There are many opportunities for workers, people, communities and businesses in Scotland to take advantage of that.

I know Rosyth dockyard particularly well—I used to represent that area. It has just launched a new type of frigate, which the workers are very proud of. A host of jobs in Port Glasgow, Prestwick, Edinburgh and Dundee, and communities across the country, depend on defence spending.

If we are to take advantage of the increased investment to defend our country, which I believe is right to come here, we will have to get it sorted with the Scottish Government. We must be clear on exactly what its position is, because there is a danger that we will throw away the opportunity for growth. The last thing that we need is any further suppression of economic growth in Scotland. For the sake of our economy, for the sake of workers and for the sake of our defence, I plead with the Deputy First Minister to get that sorted.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-17981, in the name of Murdo Fraser, on recognising the economic contribution of Scotland’s defence sector...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
We are continually being invited by the Deputy First Minister to be positive about the Scottish economy and to celebrate success stories—indeed, we just hear...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
Murdo Fraser is absolutely right. Does that situation not also stand in contrast with the attacks on our communications infrastructure in the North Sea, and ...
Murdo Fraser Con
Yes. I welcome the fact that the UK Government has stepped in, because those jobs and that investment would have gone elsewhere. Steve Carlier, president of ...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Gaelic (Kate Forbes) SNP
I welcome the opportunity to speak to the motion. I will try to cover quite a lot of ground in a limited time, but I will begin by stating plainly that Scotl...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
Kate Forbes SNP
Members will appreciate that I think that my time has just been cut again and I want to cover quite a lot of space.
Jackie Baillie Lab
On a point of order, Deputy Presiding Officer, could you give an indication of whether the cabinet secretary’s time has been cut again?
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I can confirm that the cabinet secretary’s time has not been cut, but it is still up to five minutes. I can give you the time back for that point of order, D...
Kate Forbes SNP
My apologies to Jackie Baillie. I had been anticipating slightly longer, so I am going to try to compress my comments; unfortunately, I now have even less ti...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
I welcome the statement that the Deputy First Minister made at the beginning of her speech underlining the importance of the defence sector. It is not the fi...
Edward Mountain (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Daniel Johnson Lab
I am very happy to do so, but it will need to be brief.
Edward Mountain Con
I will keep it very brief. I will quote Patrick Harvie, which I do not do often: “Scotland has strong solidarity with Ukraine and is outraged at those who w...
Daniel Johnson Lab
I think that we are not taking our own defence seriously by not considering what we need to do in terms of restocking our munitions. My point is highlighted ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
You need to conclude—
Daniel Johnson Lab
—we need to invest in it. I move amendment S6M-17981.1, to insert at end: “; welcomes the confirmation from the UK Government that it will provide the fund...
Lorna Slater (Lothian) (Green) Green
As per our position in the previous debate, the Scottish Greens believe in progressive taxation as a way to pool our collective resources and invest in the t...
Jackson Carlaw (Eastwood) (Con) Con
Will Lorna Slater take an intervention?
Lorna Slater Green
I will take interventions during my closing speech. The Scottish Government offered to review Scottish Enterprise’s human rights checks. While that has been...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
I get slightly offended when people imply that we cannot be in favour of strong defences and in favour of a moral and ethical foreign policy. I think that we...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
We move to the open debate. 16:28
Stephen Kerr (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
When the SNP is up to its neck in muck and bullets—although that might not be an appropriate term, given its attitude towards bullets—it sends for Kate Forbe...
Daniel Johnson Lab
Does the member agree that the view that we should seek to defend our country should be a patriotic view, regardless of our view on the constitution? Our vie...
Stephen Kerr Con
I could not agree more with Daniel Johnson. It is about a patriotic duty. It might not be fashionable in the SNP, or in the Scottish Greens, to talk about pa...
Gordon MacDonald (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) SNP
Scotland’s defence sector, which covers aerospace, defence and security, is valued at £3.2 billion and directly supports more than 33,000 jobs. I acknowledge...
Edward Mountain (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
I am delighted to stand up and speak in the debate, even if it is to highlight some of the incredible things that I hear other parties saying. First, I put o...
Paul Sweeney (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
It is a pleasure to speak in the debate, and I second the amendment in the name of my colleague Mr Johnson. It is a very sensible amendment and I encourage t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
You need to conclude.
Paul Sweeney Lab
That is fairly axiomatic.