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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 12 June 2025

12 Jun 2025 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Migration
Smith, Liz Con Mid Scotland and Fife Watch on SPTV

Yes, I absolutely recognise that. The media is partly responsible for some of that divisiveness.

I come back to the Deputy First Minister’s point about homogeneity with regard to economic inactivity: she is quite right that there are lots of different aspects to economic inactivity, but we have worryingly high rates of it and very significant labour shortages in key sectors, such as agriculture, hospitality and care. We also have huge pressure on public services, which the Scottish Fiscal Commission set out last week; there are definitely challenges to a one-size-fits-all approach, which I will come back to; and there has definitely been a Brexit effect, which has changed the nature and the composition of the migrant population. More migrants now come from outside the EU—so it is a more diverse group, especially when it comes to languages and cultures.

However, I also make the point, which I think that the Deputy First Minister referred to, that, in the past five years, the UK has seen record levels of inward migration from abroad. However, Scotland has not always been able to attract what we would see as our percentage share of that. As I think that The Sunday Times pointed out at the weekend, we might be doing very well on attracting people from down south to Scotland, but there is an issue with regard to the fact that not so many people come to Scotland from elsewhere. That is in marked contrast to what is happening down south.

With regard to the Scottish Fiscal Commission, I heard the Deputy First Minister’s little comment about the tax base. The issue is about the tax increase that we need in revenue terms. Yes, people might be taxpayers, but, if we listen to an awful lot of people in the business community, particularly people like Sandy Begbie—I know that that message has gone back loud and clear to the Scottish Government—we learn that there is a problem in relation to attracting middle to higher earners to Scotland. That recruitment process is something that the Economy and Fair Work Committee heard a lot about when it visited Prestwick airport, and we need to take cognisance of that issue.

Last Wednesday we had a really interesting debate about entrepreneurship and innovation. Kate Forbes, who was leading for the Government, was quite right to say that entrepreneurs and innovators are the catalysts for economic growth. We should acknowledge both and welcome the very positive contribution that many of those people who are not indigenous to Scotland make when it comes to entrepreneurship.

Nonetheless, there are serious issues in relation to immigration policy, which is why I want to delve a bit deeper into the matter. I suggest that the debate should not be about Scotland against the rest of the UK but should be much more about different sectors across the UK. I do not like the fact that we often get into constitutional debate about the issue, when it has much more to do with the sectors.

I know from speaking to my local community in Perthshire that we have people there who are some of the best workers—indeed, some Polish workers are seen by their employer as absolutely outstanding in the contribution that they make to agriculture. That is the case in my community but people in Norfolk or wherever will say exactly the same.

We must be careful about how we play this, because I think that there is a—

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-17906, in the name of Kate Forbes, on a migration system that works for Scotland. I invite members who wi...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Gaelic (Kate Forbes) SNP
Scotland’s economic history is deeply intertwined with migration and emigration. Famines, industrialisation, the growth of cities, lowland and highland clear...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
The Deputy First Minister is absolutely right to focus on how we maximise people’s participation in the workforce. Has there been any analysis of why economi...
Kate Forbes SNP
It is an excellent question. The figures fluctuate considerably from month to month, and I am tracking them very closely. There are a number of elements to t...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I do not need to remind the cabinet secretary of how important the rural depopulation issue is within all of this. That is not just a matter of migration pol...
Kate Forbes SNP
I absolutely agree. The National Records of Scotland, among others, forecasts double-digit reductions in population, particularly across coastal and island c...
Emma Harper (South Scotland) (SNP) SNP
Regarding the rural pilot schemes for visas, 48 per cent of Scotland’s dairy herd is in the south-west of Scotland, and a lot of the cows are milked by perso...
Kate Forbes SNP
I do, and anecdotes like that could be replicated in many different parts of Scotland. Employers frequently put it to me that migration is an area where they...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I greatly welcome the Deputy First Minister’s tone, because, as we all know, far too often, migration debates are highly contentious and framed by economic, ...
Alex Cole-Hamilton (Edinburgh Western) (LD) LD
I also welcome Liz Smith’s tone in the debate, and I recognise what she said at the outset about racism and misinformation about the facts of immigration. Do...
Liz Smith Con
Yes, I absolutely recognise that. The media is partly responsible for some of that divisiveness. I come back to the Deputy First Minister’s point about homo...
Daniel Johnson Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Liz Smith Con
Will I get a little time back?
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Yes.
Daniel Johnson Lab
Liz Smith is making a really interesting contribution about some of the nuances in the labour market. Is there also a broader, global context, in which world...
Liz Smith Con
That is a very good point from Mr Johnson. I think that he is right that there is a global context to the issue, which is important. When I was elected to t...
Kate Forbes SNP
Liz Smith talked about this being a UK-wide issue. First, although I agree that it is a sectoral issue rather than a uniquely Scottish one, we always come to...
Liz Smith Con
That is a fair point to make. There is a broader picture about how well we can navigate not only a global situation but the situation in the UK. Although I h...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I call Michael Marra to speak to and move amendment S6M-17906.2. 15:44
Michael Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lab
As we have heard, Scotland has long been—and remains—a welcoming country to people who want to settle here, to join our community, to enjoy this beautiful co...
Jeremy Balfour (Lothian) (Con) Con
I am grateful to Michael Marra for taking my intervention. One of my concerns with the white paper from his colleagues in London is that it does not recognis...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I will give you the time back, Michael Marra.
Michael Marra Lab
I thank Jeremy Balfour for his intervention. I understand that he has personal experience of care, as he has often set out in the chamber. It is a very relev...
Michael Marra Lab
I would appreciate it if I could make some progress, Deputy First Minister. By contrast, on the economic side, the Scottish National Party is propping up a ...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Michael Marra Lab
I do not have the time, Ms Grahame—apologies. However, the Scottish Government has not even managed to train enough workers to meet the current demand. Ins...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I advise members that we have a little bit of time in hand. If members take interventions, they will certainly get the time back. 15:50
Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green) Green
I am pleased to contribute to the debate, not only to support the motion but to speak to a principle that must guide us in everything that we do: every perso...
Alex Cole-Hamilton (Edinburgh Western) (LD) LD
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in the debate, and I am also grateful for the tone that has been fostered by those on all sides of the chamber thu...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
We move to the open debate. 16:00