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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 28 May 2025

28 May 2025 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Teaching Workforce
Chapman, Maggie Green North East Scotland Watch on SPTV

There has been some discussion of the need for collaboration between national and local government to achieve a sustainable teaching workforce. The Liberal Democrat motion, which the Scottish Greens support, rightly highlights the failure to meet the target of 3,500 new teachers. The Parliament must come to terms with that shortfall.

However, one key omission, which was highlighted by the cabinet secretary and others, is the role of local authorities. It is therefore good that the Government’s amendment adds reference to the need for any new plan for the teaching workforce to include local authorities. Such partnership working with our councils is crucial. As I mentioned earlier, I want £186 million to be used to recruit and retain teachers in our schools, but I also respect the fact that local authority elected representatives have as much democratic legitimacy as we have, and they are the employers of those who work in our schools. There is an obvious tension between those two positions.

The Conservative amendment touches on a number of issues that were raised during that party’s most recent business debate. Again, it refers specifically to pupil support staff. That goes hand in hand with long-term workforce development. One issue relating to support staff is that, starting in around 2019, Government statisticians could no longer distinguish between ASN staff and classroom or general pupil support assistants; from that point onward, they began to group those two categories together in the school staff census. That is why the Scottish Greens worked with the cabinet secretary to develop policy proposals for a system of accreditation and registration of ASN staff.

However, it is not only about support staff. There has been a significant reduction in ASN teacher numbers relative to the number of pupils. In fact, there has been no increase in the number of ASN teachers in our schools even in absolute terms. We must give teachers the opportunity to move into ASN specialist teaching as a point of career progression—and the only way that we can encourage more teachers into ASN teaching is by making it a promoted post. That requires additional resourcing, but so does a long-term strategy for teacher workforce recovery.

That is why at the root of the debate is something deeper: how we fund education at its core. Scotland’s failure to reform local government finance in 25 years is being felt in our schools. We must give local authorities far more powers to raise revenue, and we should give them the option of using those powers if, and however, they wish.

It is not normal to have a tier of government that raises only about 20 per cent of its funding. The Greens have put forward proposals for a carbon emission land tax, a demolition levy and a stadium levy. We believe that, ultimately, councils should have a power of general competence to raise that money for themselves. However, we accept that that will not happen immediately to resolve the issue that we have discussed today. That important issue cannot be a stand-off between the Parliament and local authorities—between central planning and local delivery. Neither should we reduce it to a waiting game to see who blinks first.

I am glad to see an indication of forward movement from the Government, but we cannot support pupils without supporting teachers. We should not settle for reactive measures, nor can we support teachers without supporting councils, or support councils without reforming how we fund them. That is where the long-term discussions must start.

15:40  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-17669, in the name of Willie Rennie, on a new plan for Scotland’s teaching workforce. I invite members wh...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
Presiding Officer, “I find myself ill with worry of how I will pay my bills. My car is broken but I cannot afford to fix it. My rent is £1000 but I cannot g...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
You need to conclude.
Willie Rennie LD
I appreciate that teacher workforce planning is not simple, but the Government has made the situation a whole lot worse. I move, That the Parliament acknow...
The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (Jenny Gilruth) SNP
I thank Mr Rennie for lodging the motion for debate during Liberal Democrat time. I thought that the story that he set out at the start of his speech was dee...
Jackie Dunbar (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) SNP
Does the cabinet secretary agree that there is also a role for other partners in workforce planning—universities, for example—to ensure that we have the righ...
Jenny Gilruth SNP
I agree with the sentiments that the member has expressed. Our universities are directly involved in national workforce planning at the current time. I will...
Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
Jenny Gilruth SNP
I say to Ms Duncan-Glancy that I am conscious of time; I have one minute left. The teacher induction scheme has served us well for many years, and I have di...
Willie Rennie LD
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
Jenny Gilruth SNP
I am happy to give way on that point, although I am conscious of time.
Willie Rennie LD
When will the cabinet secretary mention unemployed primary school teachers?
Jenny Gilruth SNP
I have five minutes for my speech and less than a minute left. I will come on to talk about that, because part of the issue is specifically about our primary...
Miles Briggs (Lothian) (Con) Con
I thank Willie Rennie and the Liberal Democrats for using their party business time to hold the debate. It is important that we highlight the pressures that ...
Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
I thank Willie Rennie and the Scottish Liberal Democrats for bringing to Parliament this crucial motion, which we will support at decision time. Scottish Lab...
Jenny Gilruth SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
If the cabinet secretary is prepared to explain how she will take responsibility, I will be happy to take the intervention.
Jenny Gilruth SNP
I am here, as cabinet secretary, taking responsibility today. I gently say to the member that local authorities, not the Scottish Government, employ our teac...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
The cabinet secretary cannot see that we have gaps and that we have teachers without jobs in some areas and in some subjects. Only the Government has the ove...
Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green) Green
The figure of £145 million—now £186.5 million—should be enough to move every teacher who is on a temporary contract into a permanent role and to recruit hund...
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (LD) LD
It is hard to believe, after 17 years of the present Government, that we are having this debate. We really should not be, but here we are. Let us not beat ab...
Jackie Dunbar (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) SNP
I want every child in Scotland to get the best possible start in life, and education is an affa big part of that best start. We have great schools and we hav...
Douglas Ross (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
I am grateful to the Liberal Democrats for bringing this topic to the chamber, to allow us to have another education debate. I was thinking about the last ed...
Alex Rowley (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
We will not be able to tackle the workforce challenges in education until we tackle the massive issues in our schools, which this Government has failed to do...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
George Adam will be the final speaker in the open debate. You have up to four minutes, Mr Adam. 15:31
George Adam (Paisley) (SNP) SNP
As I have listened to the debate, what I was planning to say has changed about three or four times, so I apologise if my speech ends up being a bit of a mish...
Willie Rennie LD
In making his reasonable contribution, does the member recognise that the Government has contributed to the surplus, and therefore the unemployment, of prima...
George Adam SNP
Our job is to work together on solutions. The cabinet secretary has been open about how she is willing to work with members and others to see how we can go f...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
We move to the winding-up speeches. 15:36
Maggie Chapman Green
There has been some discussion of the need for collaboration between national and local government to achieve a sustainable teaching workforce. The Liberal D...