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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 13 May 2025

13 May 2025 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Johnson, Daniel Lab Edinburgh Southern Watch on SPTV

It is a great privilege to follow Edward Mountain’s speech.

I address my first remarks to my constituents. This is a debate unlike any other. It is a free vote, but given the importance of the debate, I say to my constituents that I take my responsibilities very seriously. My position reflects both the views that have been communicated to me over my time as an MSP, since 2016, which have broadly been in favour, and the views that have been more critical. In particular, it reflects the balance of views that I have heard in recent weeks, including at the event that I held last week in my constituency.

I believe that society’s views have changed. This is an important issue for the Parliament to discuss, and we should try, as best we can, to form a settled view. Above all else, we must do so on the basis of principles. That is why I will vote for the bill at stage 1; however, I will reserve my position because I have a number of concerns, which I will set out.

When I have observed friends and family members facing their final moments of life, I have found myself reflecting: should they have this option? I have thought to myself, as I have seen them face the end of their life: what would I want?

Should we be giving people the choice, while capacity, capability and opportunity are being removed from them? Should we be giving them this final piece of control and final element of decision making over their lives? My answer to that basic fundamental principle is yes.

We can call that bodily autonomy and decision making of the individual, but, fundamentally, it boils down to that question. Would you want that choice? Would you want that choice for others? That is not to say that that choice needs to be made, but should it be available?

In facing these matters, I also think about the harm principle, which is that the only purpose for which people can be prevented from doing things is to prevent causing harm to others. In that basic act, I do not see the harm, which is why I think that Parliament needs to fully consider these matters. It must expose all the detail through stage 2 in order to challenge whether the bill can meet the concerns that I think are there.

There are wider harms that we must consider, such as the pressure on the individual and the potential for changed relationships with family members and professionals, particularly clinicians. We must also consider, in terms of social outcomes, the changed expectations that people might have at the end of life. I believe that there are provisions in the bill that address some of those issues, but it could perhaps go further.

For me—this is an important point—it is about ensuring an autonomous act. The final act is one that the individual would need to take for themselves. I could not have voted for the previous bills because that would not have been the case under them.

That is important for clinical relationships, which would be fundamentally altered if the final act were to be delivered by a clinician. Most importantly, it is about consent—the ability to remove one’s consent and to withdraw it at that final moment can be achieved only if it is an autonomous act. However, I have concerns about whether that element of the bill is robust. I recognise that the issue is covered in the policy memorandum, but is what is in the bill sufficiently strong?

Likewise, the definition of “terminal illness” is incredibly important. We have seen the expansion of similar legislation in other countries. It is important that it is about the acceleration of a process that is inevitable for the individual. It is important that it is not about providing death where death is not there. The definition is critical to avoid dangerous social outcomes and to meet those changed expectations. I worry that the bill as currently framed allows for the possibility of expansion, that the curtailment-of-life requirement is not sufficiently clear and that those with long-term chronic conditions with reduced life expectancies could meet the definition. The definition needs to be tightened up. Above all else, we must be alive to the possibility of social effects.

All of those aspects can be looked at throughout the parliamentary process. They need to be resolved. I am not saying that any of those conditions would necessarily be sufficient, but those are the areas that need to be looked at most closely. We need to look at the definition.

Another issue is the timing. It is also important that, in making a declaration, clinicians are clear that the person is free of coercion or pressure. Above all else, it is vitally important that the no-detriment principle applies to individuals and organisations that opt out.

In the end, death is an inevitability for all of us. The bill is about providing options and control in a situation in which those are being removed from people because of life itself. It is about a balance of competing but equally strong and compelling arguments. Ultimately, I take the view that death in itself is not a harm but that the nature of death can be. Our decision tonight is about whether we can improve those circumstances and people’s situation as their life comes to an end. I know that colleagues will make the right decision based on their conscience.

15:08  

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-17416, in the name of Liam McArthur, on the Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill at s...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
Almost four years since I announced my intention to introduce a bill to allow terminally ill, competent adults the choice of an assisted death, Parliament fi...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
I am grateful to the member for bringing his bill forward and laying it out in detail, but many constituents have raised with me that the definition of termi...
Liam McArthur LD
I thank Liam Kerr for that intervention. He is correct in that concerns have been raised about that definition in some quarters, although the evidence that w...
The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care (Neil Gray) SNP
I thank Liam McArthur for taking an intervention as he sets out his introductory points. I will ask two practical questions. First, how does he envisage the ...
Liam McArthur LD
I thank the cabinet secretary for those questions—which, again, were raised during evidence to the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee. On delivery, ther...
Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
I appreciate the comments that Liam McArthur has put on the record about the way in which the debate has been conducted, and I thank him for the respect that...
Liam McArthur LD
I thank Pam Duncan-Glancy for that intervention. I do not think that that is the case. Polling consistently shows support, not only in the population at larg...
Clare Haughey (Rutherglen) (SNP) SNP
As convener of the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee, I am pleased to speak to our stage 1 report on the Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scot...
The Presiding Officer NPA
We move to the open debate. 14:51
The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care (Neil Gray) SNP
First, I extend my thanks to Liam McArthur for introducing the bill. I think that every member, regardless of their personal view on the bill, would agree th...
Pam Duncan-Glancy SNP
If the bill were to pass, what area of the health service budget would provide the additional training and support that would be required?
Neil Gray SNP
That question came up during the committee scrutiny stage. Other than to say that we believe that there will be a cost that has not been fully factored in, t...
Edward Mountain (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
I stand to speak in this debate with sadness, because it is all about the ending of life. During life, there will never be a bigger decision than the decisio...
The Acting Minister for Climate Action (Alasdair Allan) SNP
I suspect that the member is coming to this point. Does he agree that, despite the many impassioned and sincere cases that have been and will be made today, ...
Edward Mountain Con
The bill does not do that because it is not known which substances are available. Some of the more effective substances are no longer produced. I think that ...
Liam McArthur LD
Will the member accept an intervention?
Edward Mountain Con
I will, if I have time.
Liam McArthur LD
For clarity: one would not expect the medication to be put in the bill. Due to the need for legislative competence, it would be inappropriate to set that det...
Edward Mountain Con
I understand why the drugs will not be put in the bill. Evidence from Canada has proven that no drugs are 100 per cent guaranteed to work, be pain free or be...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
It is a great privilege to follow Edward Mountain’s speech. I address my first remarks to my constituents. This is a debate unlike any other. It is a free v...
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
This has been a difficult speech to write, and it will be difficult to deliver. Unlike some members whom we might hear from in the chamber today, I, thankfu...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Ind
I take the member’s point about coercion. Does she accept that, for some people, the issue is not coercion but that they feel that they are a burden? Althoug...
Rona Mackay SNP
That might be the case, but the bill details that two independent doctors have to say that a person is terminally ill for assisted dying to happen, so we can...
Liam McArthur LD
Will the member give way?
Rona Mackay SNP
I will just carry on, thank you. Oh, sorry—I beg your pardon. Yes, I will take the intervention.
Liam McArthur LD
Does Rona Mackay accept that the burden issue is genuine and a sentiment that is keenly felt by people at the end of life, but at the moment, no safeguards o...
Rona Mackay SNP
I will come on to that shortly. An additional safeguard that the bill introduces is a new criminal offence of coercion, with a sentence of up to 14 years, wh...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
This is, without doubt, the most difficult and sensitive debate before the Parliament in the current parliamentary session. I pay tribute to Liam McArthur, b...
Sandesh Gulhane (Glasgow) (Con) Con
I make a declaration of interests, in that I am a practising NHS GP, and I chaired the medical advisory group on the bill. I thank Liam McArthur for being b...