Committee
Education, Children and Young People Committee 07 May 2025
07 May 2025 · S6 · Education, Children and Young People Committee
Item of business
Education (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Given the figures brought up by my colleague John Mason—the fact that there could be 800 inspections a year—you run the risk of creating an administrative burden, with schools constantly under inspection and nothing getting done.
The evidence that we received from Professor Ken Muir from UWS—you have mentioned him on numerous occasions—was that the current inspection frameworks already provide sufficient flexibility to target resources where they are most needed while maintaining oversight of the system. He is someone who works in education and did a whole report on this and understands how everything works. Perhaps he would think that 800 inspections a year would be a bit much.
In the same item of business
The Convener
Con
Good evening, and welcome back. Agenda item 3 is the continuation of our stage 2 consideration of the Education (Scotland) Bill. I welcome back the cabinet s...
The Convener
Con
Amendment 84, in the name of the cabinet secretary, is grouped with amendments 304, 85, 313, 86 and 111. I point out that amendment 85 is pre-empted by amend...
The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (Jenny Gilruth)
SNP
I thank Ms Duncan-Glancy and Mr Kerr for their amendments. I am pleased to see that we agree on the value of setting out the purposes of inspection in the bi...
Pam Duncan-Glancy
Lab
I understand the cabinet secretary’s point about the inclusion in my amendment of a purpose that relates to improvement, but does she recognise that the Muir...
Jenny Gilruth
SNP
I recognise what Ms Duncan-Glancy is saying, and I would be keen to work with her on that aspect ahead of stage 3. There is much common ground in that area t...
Stephen Kerr (Central Scotland) (Con)
Con
I wish to say some words about why I felt the need to lodge amendment 304 in the first place. I think that many members will sympathise with the reasoning as...
John Mason
Ind
Will the member take an intervention?
Stephen Kerr
Con
Of course.
John Mason
Ind
Would the type of employment contract not be fairly standard throughout a number of establishments? Would there not be a lot of repetition in that regard?
Stephen Kerr
Con
I imagine that John Mason has a point, but, in effect, he makes my point for me, because it has now become a feature of teacher employment that a large numbe...
Jackie Dunbar
SNP
Will the issues that you are raising tonight not be dealt with tomorrow when the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills gives a statement to the chamber?...
Stephen Kerr
Con
I am sure that they will feature in the cabinet secretary’s statement and that there will be questions along those lines, but we are talking about the Educat...
Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I remind the committee and those watching of my declaration of interests. Stephen Kerr highlights a number of points that, to a great extent, fall within th...
Stephen Kerr
Con
Amendment 304 refers to the complement of staff available to meet needs. An issue that comes up quite frequently—which I know Martin Whitfield will be aware ...
Jenny Gilruth
SNP
I am listening to the member develop his points, and I do not deny the importance of all the issues that he is highlighting in relation to amendment 304. How...
Stephen Kerr
Con
I understand—or I think that I understand—the cabinet secretary’s point. I am not seeking, through amendment 304, to restrict an inspector’s ability to inspe...
Jenny Gilruth
SNP
We broadly agree on the need to improve the morale and wellbeing of teachers and staff, but I am conscious of how that requirement would interact with the fa...
Stephen Kerr
Con
I see the role of the inspector as speaking truth to power. I mentioned Government and Parliament, but any stakeholders, including local authorities and teac...
John Mason
Ind
Stephen Kerr mentions the reality that the inspector might find. Can that be objectively measured, and how would the inspector do that? They might speak to t...
Stephen Kerr
Con
John Mason makes a good point. The issue is not unique to this situation. Whenever there is an evaluation or assessment of a workplace, behaviours would have...
Pam Duncan-Glancy
Lab
Good evening to the cabinet secretary, officials and others. I have listened carefully to the debate that we have had so far. I will go through amendment 313...
The Convener
Con
I call the cabinet secretary to wind up and to press or withdraw amendment 84.
Jenny Gilruth
SNP
In the stage 1 report, the committee recommended that a statement on the purposes of inspection should be included in the bill. I agree on the value of setti...
The Convener
Con
Amendment 305, in the name of Stephen Kerr, is grouped with amendments 306, 309, 310 and 312. I point out that amendments 309, 310 and 312 are pre-empted by ...
Stephen Kerr
Con
Amendments 305, 306 and 310 address the crucial matter of the frequency of school inspections. The amendments that I have lodged in the group all stem from o...
John Mason
Ind
On the risk-based approach, it is common for auditors in business and in all sorts of areas of life to focus more on risky subjects than on less risky ones. ...
Stephen Kerr
Con
I will come to the frequency that I am proposing in a second. In answer to the specific issue that John Mason has raised, I understand the importance of risk...
John Mason
Ind
I asked the member about the frequency of inspections. I stand to be corrected, but my understanding is that there are about 250 inspections a year now and t...
Stephen Kerr
Con
That is a fair point and I accept it as such. There is a famous old adage that, if you think education is expensive, try ignorance. If there is a singular n...
George Adam
SNP
Given the figures brought up by my colleague John Mason—the fact that there could be 800 inspections a year—you run the risk of creating an administrative bu...