Holyrood, made browsable

Hansard

Every contribution to the Official Report — chamber and committee — searchable in one place. Pulled from data.parliament.scot, indexed for full-text search, linked through to every MSP.

129
Current MSPs
415
MSPs ever elected
13
Parties on record
2,355,091
Hansard contributions
1999–2026
Coverage span
Official Report

Search Hansard contributions

Clear
Showing 0 of 2,355,091 contributions in session S6, 16 Apr 2026 – 16 May 2026. Latest 30 days: 148. Coverage: 12 May 1999 — 14 May 2026.

No contributions match those filters.

← Back to list
Committee

Education, Children and Young People Committee 07 May 2025

07 May 2025 · S6 · Education, Children and Young People Committee
Item of business
Education (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Good evening to the cabinet secretary, officials and others. I have listened carefully to the debate that we have had so far. I will go through amendment 313 in my name, but I take the cabinet secretary’s point—or offer—about my not moving amendment 313 and that we could work together at stage 3.

My amendment 313 follows on the calls in the independent reports of the OECD, Professor Ken Muir and many others that urge us to create an independent inspection body that is focused on improvement and collaboration with the establishment and local authority and which supports excellence in our learning establishments. I think that the amendment does that. It tightly defines the purposes of an inspection and it requires the independent inspection body to be focused on those areas.

Through various reviews and experiences, some of which the cabinet secretary and my colleague Stephen Kerr have spoken to, we have seen that things in schools have gone unnoticed for probably too long. That is why review after review has found the circumstances that have been found. Getting the purpose of inspections right will be absolutely crucial.

18:15  

I have two concerns about the cabinet secretary’s amendment 84. I note that she will not press the amendment, but I will put my concerns on record for the purposes of negotiations at stage 3.

The fairly extensive regulation-making powers that would allow the Government to determine the purpose of inspections could threaten the independence of the inspector, and I will look to discuss the proposal at stage 3. I am concerned about the points raised by the EIS, as alluded to by the cabinet secretary, that individuals, as opposed to establishments, could be inspected. I think that enough has been said on that, because the cabinet secretary has acknowledged the concerns and I do not think that that was the intent. Therefore, I would not expect to see such a proposal in a negotiated amendment at stage 3.

The issues that are outlined in Stephen Kerr’s amendment 304 are critical to the future of Scotland’s education system. The lack of permanence in the teaching profession has meant that more newly qualified teachers have left the profession than before, and we know that the profession is considered to be quite precarious. We also understand that morale in the teaching profession is low, which I think we need to do various things to address. I say to both the cabinet secretary and Stephen Kerr that if laying out that we should inspect on the basis of teacher morale, contract type or ASN support is too much to include in legislation, where should we set out those requirements, so that we can guarantee that those things are considered and systematically and regularly reviewed, and so that we do not reach crisis point? Committee members and those watching the meeting will understand that those things are a significant concern.

I am not sure that it is quite right to include some of the detail in Stephen Kerr’s amendment 304 in the bill, but I understand why he has lodged it. I would be prepared to negotiate at stage 3 to see whether the bill could include something on the purposes of inspection that works for us all. I encourage the Government to consider carefully whether it considers that matters of teacher contracts, permanence, morale and ASN support should be covered in the bill. If not, at some point, the Government will have to be clear to members across the chamber what it is going to do about those key issues.

In the same item of business

The Convener Con
Good evening, and welcome back. Agenda item 3 is the continuation of our stage 2 consideration of the Education (Scotland) Bill. I welcome back the cabinet s...
The Convener Con
Amendment 84, in the name of the cabinet secretary, is grouped with amendments 304, 85, 313, 86 and 111. I point out that amendment 85 is pre-empted by amend...
The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (Jenny Gilruth) SNP
I thank Ms Duncan-Glancy and Mr Kerr for their amendments. I am pleased to see that we agree on the value of setting out the purposes of inspection in the bi...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
I understand the cabinet secretary’s point about the inclusion in my amendment of a purpose that relates to improvement, but does she recognise that the Muir...
Jenny Gilruth SNP
I recognise what Ms Duncan-Glancy is saying, and I would be keen to work with her on that aspect ahead of stage 3. There is much common ground in that area t...
Stephen Kerr (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
I wish to say some words about why I felt the need to lodge amendment 304 in the first place. I think that many members will sympathise with the reasoning as...
John Mason Ind
Will the member take an intervention?
Stephen Kerr Con
Of course.
John Mason Ind
Would the type of employment contract not be fairly standard throughout a number of establishments? Would there not be a lot of repetition in that regard?
Stephen Kerr Con
I imagine that John Mason has a point, but, in effect, he makes my point for me, because it has now become a feature of teacher employment that a large numbe...
Jackie Dunbar SNP
Will the issues that you are raising tonight not be dealt with tomorrow when the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills gives a statement to the chamber?...
Stephen Kerr Con
I am sure that they will feature in the cabinet secretary’s statement and that there will be questions along those lines, but we are talking about the Educat...
Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I remind the committee and those watching of my declaration of interests. Stephen Kerr highlights a number of points that, to a great extent, fall within th...
Stephen Kerr Con
Amendment 304 refers to the complement of staff available to meet needs. An issue that comes up quite frequently—which I know Martin Whitfield will be aware ...
Jenny Gilruth SNP
I am listening to the member develop his points, and I do not deny the importance of all the issues that he is highlighting in relation to amendment 304. How...
Stephen Kerr Con
I understand—or I think that I understand—the cabinet secretary’s point. I am not seeking, through amendment 304, to restrict an inspector’s ability to inspe...
Jenny Gilruth SNP
We broadly agree on the need to improve the morale and wellbeing of teachers and staff, but I am conscious of how that requirement would interact with the fa...
Stephen Kerr Con
I see the role of the inspector as speaking truth to power. I mentioned Government and Parliament, but any stakeholders, including local authorities and teac...
John Mason Ind
Stephen Kerr mentions the reality that the inspector might find. Can that be objectively measured, and how would the inspector do that? They might speak to t...
Stephen Kerr Con
John Mason makes a good point. The issue is not unique to this situation. Whenever there is an evaluation or assessment of a workplace, behaviours would have...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
Good evening to the cabinet secretary, officials and others. I have listened carefully to the debate that we have had so far. I will go through amendment 313...
The Convener Con
I call the cabinet secretary to wind up and to press or withdraw amendment 84.
Jenny Gilruth SNP
In the stage 1 report, the committee recommended that a statement on the purposes of inspection should be included in the bill. I agree on the value of setti...
The Convener Con
Amendment 305, in the name of Stephen Kerr, is grouped with amendments 306, 309, 310 and 312. I point out that amendments 309, 310 and 312 are pre-empted by ...
Stephen Kerr Con
Amendments 305, 306 and 310 address the crucial matter of the frequency of school inspections. The amendments that I have lodged in the group all stem from o...
John Mason Ind
On the risk-based approach, it is common for auditors in business and in all sorts of areas of life to focus more on risky subjects than on less risky ones. ...
Stephen Kerr Con
I will come to the frequency that I am proposing in a second. In answer to the specific issue that John Mason has raised, I understand the importance of risk...
John Mason Ind
I asked the member about the frequency of inspections. I stand to be corrected, but my understanding is that there are about 250 inspections a year now and t...
Stephen Kerr Con
That is a fair point and I accept it as such. There is a famous old adage that, if you think education is expensive, try ignorance. If there is a singular n...
George Adam SNP
Given the figures brought up by my colleague John Mason—the fact that there could be 800 inspections a year—you run the risk of creating an administrative bu...