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Committee

Education, Children and Young People Committee 07 May 2025

07 May 2025 · S6 · Education, Children and Young People Committee
Item of business
Education (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Gilruth, Jenny SNP Mid Fife and Glenrothes Watch on SPTV

I recognise what Ms Duncan-Glancy is saying, and I would be keen to work with her on that aspect ahead of stage 3. There is much common ground in that area that we can work on, and I hope that, through joint consideration, we can reach a mutually agreeable position.

My concern with Stephen Kerr’s amendment 304 is that it is overly prescriptive. Including amendments of such a nature in the bill would make it difficult for the new chief inspector to develop their role organically and, importantly, it would limit their ability to respond to the changing needs of the education system over time. Although I agree on the importance of each of the issues that he has listed, they are not high-level purposes for the chief inspector to have regard to over the longer term. They would prevent the carrying out of focused thematic inspections by requiring every inspection to cover each of the matters listed. For example, discipline policies would always have to be inspected, as would the employment contracts held by teachers, even when those aspects were not relevant to the theme that the chief inspector wanted to examine.

Many of those matters are already included as quality indicators in the “How good is our school?” framework that is currently used by the inspectorate. I hope that that reassures Stephen Kerr that the concerns that his amendment 304 looks to address are currently, and will continue to be, of importance to the chief inspector.

It is important to highlight that the purposes specified in amendment 84 have been consulted on and align with those identified by Professor Muir—which was Pam Duncan-Glancy’s point—and that the drafting delivers a strong position on the purpose of inspection. Notwithstanding that, although I will move amendment 84 for the purpose of opening up this group for debate, I will be happy to seek to withdraw it if Pam Duncan-Glancy does not move her amendment 313, and I suggest that we work to identify an agreed position for stage 3. That will also allow me to ensure that, when we bring the matter back, we address a concern that has been raised by the EIS, which is that it be made clear that the purpose of inspection is to hold to account institutions, not individual teachers, which I agree with.

I urge Stephen Kerr not to move his alternative amendment—amendment 304—and I urge members not to support it if he does.

I move amendment 84.

In the same item of business

The Convener Con
Good evening, and welcome back. Agenda item 3 is the continuation of our stage 2 consideration of the Education (Scotland) Bill. I welcome back the cabinet s...
The Convener Con
Amendment 84, in the name of the cabinet secretary, is grouped with amendments 304, 85, 313, 86 and 111. I point out that amendment 85 is pre-empted by amend...
The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (Jenny Gilruth) SNP
I thank Ms Duncan-Glancy and Mr Kerr for their amendments. I am pleased to see that we agree on the value of setting out the purposes of inspection in the bi...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
I understand the cabinet secretary’s point about the inclusion in my amendment of a purpose that relates to improvement, but does she recognise that the Muir...
Jenny Gilruth SNP
I recognise what Ms Duncan-Glancy is saying, and I would be keen to work with her on that aspect ahead of stage 3. There is much common ground in that area t...
Stephen Kerr (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
I wish to say some words about why I felt the need to lodge amendment 304 in the first place. I think that many members will sympathise with the reasoning as...
John Mason Ind
Will the member take an intervention?
Stephen Kerr Con
Of course.
John Mason Ind
Would the type of employment contract not be fairly standard throughout a number of establishments? Would there not be a lot of repetition in that regard?
Stephen Kerr Con
I imagine that John Mason has a point, but, in effect, he makes my point for me, because it has now become a feature of teacher employment that a large numbe...
Jackie Dunbar SNP
Will the issues that you are raising tonight not be dealt with tomorrow when the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills gives a statement to the chamber?...
Stephen Kerr Con
I am sure that they will feature in the cabinet secretary’s statement and that there will be questions along those lines, but we are talking about the Educat...
Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I remind the committee and those watching of my declaration of interests. Stephen Kerr highlights a number of points that, to a great extent, fall within th...
Stephen Kerr Con
Amendment 304 refers to the complement of staff available to meet needs. An issue that comes up quite frequently—which I know Martin Whitfield will be aware ...
Jenny Gilruth SNP
I am listening to the member develop his points, and I do not deny the importance of all the issues that he is highlighting in relation to amendment 304. How...
Stephen Kerr Con
I understand—or I think that I understand—the cabinet secretary’s point. I am not seeking, through amendment 304, to restrict an inspector’s ability to inspe...
Jenny Gilruth SNP
We broadly agree on the need to improve the morale and wellbeing of teachers and staff, but I am conscious of how that requirement would interact with the fa...
Stephen Kerr Con
I see the role of the inspector as speaking truth to power. I mentioned Government and Parliament, but any stakeholders, including local authorities and teac...
John Mason Ind
Stephen Kerr mentions the reality that the inspector might find. Can that be objectively measured, and how would the inspector do that? They might speak to t...
Stephen Kerr Con
John Mason makes a good point. The issue is not unique to this situation. Whenever there is an evaluation or assessment of a workplace, behaviours would have...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
Good evening to the cabinet secretary, officials and others. I have listened carefully to the debate that we have had so far. I will go through amendment 313...
The Convener Con
I call the cabinet secretary to wind up and to press or withdraw amendment 84.
Jenny Gilruth SNP
In the stage 1 report, the committee recommended that a statement on the purposes of inspection should be included in the bill. I agree on the value of setti...
The Convener Con
Amendment 305, in the name of Stephen Kerr, is grouped with amendments 306, 309, 310 and 312. I point out that amendments 309, 310 and 312 are pre-empted by ...
Stephen Kerr Con
Amendments 305, 306 and 310 address the crucial matter of the frequency of school inspections. The amendments that I have lodged in the group all stem from o...
John Mason Ind
On the risk-based approach, it is common for auditors in business and in all sorts of areas of life to focus more on risky subjects than on less risky ones. ...
Stephen Kerr Con
I will come to the frequency that I am proposing in a second. In answer to the specific issue that John Mason has raised, I understand the importance of risk...
John Mason Ind
I asked the member about the frequency of inspections. I stand to be corrected, but my understanding is that there are about 250 inspections a year now and t...
Stephen Kerr Con
That is a fair point and I accept it as such. There is a famous old adage that, if you think education is expensive, try ignorance. If there is a singular n...
George Adam SNP
Given the figures brought up by my colleague John Mason—the fact that there could be 800 inspections a year—you run the risk of creating an administrative bu...