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Committee

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee 29 April 2025

29 Apr 2025 · S6 · Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee
Item of business
Motion to Remove a Member of the Committee
Chapman, Maggie Green North East Scotland Watch on SPTV

I want to express my solidarity with trans and non-binary people across Scotland. I have spoken to many of them over the past weeks and months and they consistently say the same thing: that they feel under attack; that they feel that, as a group, they have been cast as a threat to others when we know that they are not; and that they just want to live their lives as who they are, like any of us do.

I am grateful to the many people—trans and cis—who have been in touch with me over the past two weeks to tell me their stories. It has been devastating to hear about the exclusion and prejudice that they or their loved ones have faced and how worried they are for the future. Some have just been in touch to thank me for standing up for them in this cruellest of culture wars.

A culture war is what is happening. Trans and non-binary people are having their lives weaponised in absolutely dreadful ways and, for the first time in a long time, human rights appear to be going backwards. We are already seeing implications for women too, with challenges to our bodily autonomy, our abortion rights and our right to exist as we wish, rather than according to socially imposed views of femininity or beauty.

The Good Law Project and others have produced detailed analyses of the questions that are raised by the Equality and Human Rights Commission’s interim statement that was produced on Friday evening—and, indeed, the Supreme Court ruling—about compliance with our obligations under international human rights law. I will not go into that in detail now; we will spend time discussing that in due course.

This debate is about what I said in response to the Supreme Court ruling. I have never questioned the court’s right to make the ruling that it did, but that does not mean that I must agree with it. I do not, and I am very concerned about the impact that it will have and is already having. Trans and non-binary people just want to be able to live their lives like any of us, without the fear of prejudice or violence, but they are now concerned about how their lives and rights will be affected by the ruling.

I have stood up for and advocated for trans and non-binary people and I always will. That is not just because it is the right thing to do; it is also my job to stand up for my constituents. All of us have constituents who are trans or non-binary. Other constituents have trans or non-binary children, parents, siblings and friends. They deserve representation as who they are.

I will not stop being a vocal trans ally. That is what I was doing in Aberdeen nearly 10 days ago, as I had done in Dundee the day before, and as I have done many times over the years on our streets and in our Parliament. Thousands of LGBTQIA+ people and their allies gathered on our streets after the Supreme Court verdict because they were angry, afraid and uncertain of what lies ahead for them and their loved ones.

We know that our courts reflect our society. We have probably all criticised court judgments in the past when racist or homophobic laws were upheld, when women did not get justice for the abuse and violence that they had faced, or when coal miners were convicted of offences during the miners strike of the 1980s. Just a couple of years ago, this very Parliament pardoned all those who were convicted during the strike with the Miners’ Strike (Pardons) (Scotland) Act 2022. That is not to say that the courts did not have the constitutional right to make those judgments—of course they did. However, we would all surely hope that those rulings would be made differently if they were to be made today.

This ruling did not happen in a vacuum; it happened with a backdrop of a culture war that has seen trans people and their loved ones being targeted and demonised by too many politicians and by large parts of the media. However, as politicians, we must use our voices to speak out when we see rights being removed or injustices faced by anyone, and perhaps especially when minoritised communities are threatened by societal prejudice. We not only have the right of freedom of expression to be able to speak out; we have the obligation to speak out.

I do not expect all MSPs on the committee to agree with my views on the ruling or about trans rights more generally, but I hope that members will uphold my right to them.

Lord David Hope, who served as the Lord President of the Court of Session and first deputy president of the Supreme Court—and who is not a Scottish Green Party member—said of me:

“I do not think that she should stand down or be removed from her post but she should be more careful with her language.”

I will let members be the judge of that.

09:45  

However, this is not about me—it is about what message our Parliament sends, and what we do for people who feel under attack and who are worried about what the future holds.

Finally, I am sorry that I am not with the committee in person, but I am at the Scottish Trades Union Congress annual congress in Dundee. Congress opened yesterday with a clear statement of welcome to, and inclusion of, trans people. The STUC’s general secretary, Roz Foyer, has expressed grave concerns about the impacts and effects on trans and non-binary people of the Supreme Court ruling, and trade unionists from across the country spoke passionately in support of trans and non-binary people, expressing solidarity in the face of the onslaught that they face. I am proud to be a trade unionist, just as I am proud to be a trans ally.

In the same item of business

The Convener (Karen Adam) SNP
Good morning, and welcome to the 10th meeting in 2025 of the Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee. Maggie Chapman and Evelyn Tweed will atten...
Tess White (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
My motion, under rule 6.3 of standing orders, calls for the Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee to recommend that the Parliament removes Mag...
Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green) Green
I want to express my solidarity with trans and non-binary people across Scotland. I have spoken to many of them over the past weeks and months and they consi...
Pam Gosal (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I thank my colleague Tess White for lodging the motion, which recommends “that the Parliament remove Maggie Chapman MSP from office as a member of the Commi...
Paul O’Kane (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute to the debate as we consider the motion before us this morning. The motion has been lodged under the standi...
The Convener SNP
There are a few members who still want to come in. I will bring them in, and then I will ask Ms Chapman if she wishes to come in at that point. Tess White wi...
Paul O’Kane Lab
Thank you, convener. The deputy convener and I have served on this committee together since 2023. There are areas on which we agree and there are areas on wh...
Marie McNair (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) SNP
I will be brief in my remarks. I certainly accept the decision of the Supreme Court. It is correct that we can agree or disagree with what Maggie Chapman has...
Rachael Hamilton (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Con
I thank you and the committee, convener, for welcoming me to the committee and giving me the opportunity to speak. As members will be aware, I have supporte...
The Convener SNP
Maggie Chapman has indicated that she would like to accept the committee’s invitation to speak.
Maggie Chapman Green
I will just say a couple of words in response to members’ contributions. First, Rachel Hamilton said that I was the CEO of Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre, but ...
The Convener SNP
I invite Tess White to wind up and indicate whether she wishes to press or withdraw her motion.
Tess White Con
Thank you, convener. May I give Maggie Chapman one final opportunity to show remorse and apologise for the accusations that she made?
The Convener SNP
Tess White, I ask you to sum up and press or withdraw your motion—
Tess White Con
I would like to ask Maggie Chapman, one final time before I move to close, whether she is going to apologise.
Maggie Chapman Green
Convener, do you want me to come in?
The Convener SNP
Maggie Chapman, are you satisfied that you have said what you needed to say, or do you wish to take up Tess White’s invitation to speak?
Maggie Chapman Green
I have said what I wish to say.
The Convener SNP
Okay—thank you. Tess White, please continue.
Tess White Con
I have heard what members have said, and I thank Paul O’Kane for his words and for actually stating that we do have a solemn duty to respect the rule of law....
The Convener SNP
The question is, that motion S6M-17314, in the name of Tess White, be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener SNP
There will be a division. For Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland)(Lab) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Against Adam, ...
The Convener SNP
The result of the division is: For 3, Against 4, Abstentions 0. Motion disagreed to.
The Convener SNP
I suspend the meeting for five minutes to allow us to bring in our witnesses and commence the rest of today’s business. 10:12 Meeting suspended. 10:21 On r...