Committee
Criminal Justice Committee 02 October 2024
02 Oct 2024 · S6 · Criminal Justice Committee
Item of business
Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Amendments 5, 8 and 11 relate to the individual duty of candour inserted into the standards of professional behaviour and the organisational duty added to the policing principles. They follow the committee’s recommendation and my commitment in the stage 1 debate to bring them forward. Those amendments will ensure that there is no doubt that constables must be candid in all investigations, regardless of who they relate to, by making it clear that the duty of candour is required in all investigations, including into all constables, all police staff and all Scottish Police Authority staff. I turn to my amendments 7 and 10. Concerns were raised in evidence sessions about the duty of candour potentially interfering with the privilege against self-incrimination. Police Scotland requested in written evidence that the bill be amended to specify that the duty of candour applies only where a constable has been confirmed as a witness. In other words, Police Scotland wanted comfort that the duty does not apply when a person is a suspect in a criminal case, where the right to silence and the privilege against self-incrimination are protected. The privilege against self-incrimination is understood to encompass the right to silence and applies only to criminal cases. In considering the request, I have accepted the essence of what is being asked for. I have ensured that it is done in a way that excludes only those who have privilege against self-incrimination in criminal cases, rather than anyone who is confirmed as a witness in a civil or criminal matter, which is a much wider category. If we were to make the duty of candour applicable only to those who are labelled as a witness, it would afford the right to silence to anyone not labelled as a witness, which would be counterproductive to the purpose of section 3 of the bill, which is to ensure that all officers are candid. For example, if a constable has seen an incident involving a colleague that concerns him but has not been identified as a witness and may never even be asked about the incident, the duty of candour should apply to him to require him to speak up and disclose the relevant information about what he has seen. The amendments spell out what is already the case—namely, that the duty of candour is not unqualified but is subject to the privilege against self-incrimination in criminal cases—and I hope that the committee will support them. I am afraid that I cannot support Sharon Dowey’s amendments 6 and 9, which propose adding to conduct regulations that the duty of candour “does not apply to a constable who is suspected of having committed a criminal offence.” The amendments do not provide a direct link between the subject matter of the criminal offence and the subject matter of a situation that the constable is being asked about. For example, a constable could be asked whether they saw a colleague kick a witness, but the fact that they are suspected, separately and unconnectedly, of a serious assault would mean that they would not be subject to the duty of candour in relation to the unrelated matter. Although it could not reasonably be implied from the bill that the duty of candour is not qualified by the privilege against self-incrimination or the general protections of the law in that area, in order to ensure that there is no dubiety, my amendments 7 and 10 make that crystal clear in response to concerns that were raised in evidence at stage 1, particularly by Police Scotland. I do not support Ms Dowey’s amendments 6 and 9 because the essence of those amendments is accomplished by my amendments, which expressly state the legal position that the existing law already achieves. My amendments do so without disapplying the duty of candour to a whole category of constables in an entirely unprincipled way, as amendment 6 would do. I ask members to support the amendments in my name and to oppose amendments 6 and 9. I move amendment 5.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Audrey Nicoll)
SNP
Good morning, and welcome to the 30th meeting in 2024 of the Criminal Justice Committee. We have no apologies. Our main item of business is consideration of...
The Convener
SNP
The first group of amendments is on the code of ethics. Amendment 1, in the name of the cabinet secretary, is grouped with amendments 48, 2, 49, 3, 4 and 50.
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs (Angela Constance)
SNP
Good morning. I will first speak to amendments 1 and 2, which will add further sources that the chief constable must refer to when preparing the code. That f...
Katy Clark (West Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I will support the Government’s and Sharon Dowey’s amendments, if they are pressed to a vote. I do not intend to press my amendments 48 and 49 to a vote toda...
Sharon Dowey (South Scotland) (Con)
Con
We intend to support the amendments in the group if they are pressed to a vote. Amendment 4 seeks to add to the list of people who should be consulted on th...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab)
Lab
I seek clarification on the cabinet secretary’s position on Katy Clark’s amendments. The Government’s amendment 1 seeks to adopt, for example, the European c...
Sharon Dowey
Con
No—the position is as the cabinet secretary said. It is not about consulting every person who has had a complaint in the police system but about taking a gro...
Pauline McNeill
Lab
Right. I know that that will be for discussion between you and the cabinet secretary but, when the revised amendment is being framed, I would like it to be c...
The Convener
SNP
I will bring in the cabinet secretary, and Sharon Dowey can come back in if she wants to add anything.
Angela Constance
SNP
I reiterate that I am more than happy to work with Katy Clark and Sharon Dowey in advance of stage 3. On the concerns about the phrase “lesser obligation”, ...
The Convener
SNP
As no other member wants to come in, do you want to add anything else in winding up?
Angela Constance
SNP
No, thank you. I think that I have done my winding up. Amendment 1 agreed to. Amendment 48 not moved. Amendment 2 moved—Angela Constance—and agreed to. ...
The Convener
SNP
We move to group 2, on duty on candour. Amendment 5, in the name of the cabinet secretary, is grouped with amendments 6 to 11.
Angela Constance
SNP
Amendments 5, 8 and 11 relate to the individual duty of candour inserted into the standards of professional behaviour and the organisational duty added to th...
Sharon Dowey
Con
Amendment 6 adds to the provisions that would introduce a duty of candour to the Police Service of Scotland (Senior Officers) (Conduct) Regulations 2013. The...
Katy Clark
Lab
I support the Scottish Government’s intention to attempt to strengthen and codify the duty of candour. The duty of candour for public officials is a live iss...
The Convener
SNP
There was quite a lot in there. I will bring in Pauline McNeill, before the cabinet secretary responds. 09:30
Pauline McNeill
Lab
Thank you. I am in the same position as Katy Clark, in that I think that the amendments in this group are really important, regardless of how they have been...
The Convener
SNP
If no other members wish to come in, I will bring in the cabinet secretary to wind up.
Angela Constance
SNP
On the types of offences related to misusing public office, there is a live discussion across the UK right now, for various reasons that cut across the Hills...
Pauline McNeill
Lab
There were quite a few points that you did not cover there. The one that I am keen to understand relates to the language around “reasonable assertion”.
Angela Constance
SNP
There are complicated questions in relation to application and scope, so I will probably require a bit of consultation with legal officials and will come bac...
Pauline McNeill
Lab
To be fair, I did not expect you to answer that. It is just that we are going to vote on the matter shortly, so I want to be sure about what “reasonable asse...
Angela Constance
SNP
I do not have anything to add to or subtract from what I have said. Amendment 5 agreed to. Amendment 6 not moved. Amendments 7 and 8 moved—Angela Constanc...
The Convener
SNP
The next group is on the vetting of constables and police staff. Amendment 43, in the name of the cabinet secretary, is grouped with amendments 44 to 47.
Angela Constance
SNP
The amendments in group 3 respond directly to the recommendation that was made by His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary in Scotland to ensure that there...
Russell Findlay (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
I am extremely concerned about these amendments. The bill was published on 6 June, and here we are, 12 weeks later, considering a load of amendments from the...
Pauline McNeill
Lab
Like Russell Findlay, I have heard similar concerns. Cabinet secretary, you opened by saying that the committee had asked for these changes, but that is not...
Katy Clark
Lab
I am very sympathetic to what the Scottish Government is trying to do. It is clear that we need to strengthen the vetting processes that existed historically...
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
SNP
It is clear that vetting procedures need to be strengthened, and that is what the amendments are trying to do. Going back to Russell Findlay’s comments, I a...