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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 24 April 2025

24 Apr 2025 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers
McCall, Roz Con Mid Scotland and Fife Watch on SPTV

I am delighted to open this committee debate on behalf of the Scottish Conservatives and to note the report that the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee produced following its inquiry into framework legislation and Henry VIII powers. I know that it has been said that this is a dry and dusty topic, but I actually find it extremely interesting.

I thank everyone who took the time to respond to the call for views or to provide evidence for the inquiry. As the convener has said, our thanks also go to the clerks and the legal team for their support and hard work throughout the process.

The inquiry came about because there has been a steady rise—or the perception of such a rise—in the utilisation of secondary legislation as a convenient way of passing laws. It has been suggested that it provides supposed flexibility in allowing legislation to be amended without the lengthy process of ensuring that every detail is written in the bill, and in making it more adaptable to societal change and helping with delivery. However, that comes with the downside of less Parliament scrutiny and a vagueness in the accompanying financial memorandum.

Most people who gave evidence to the committee pretty much agreed that there had been a steady increase—or a supposed increase—in the number of framework or skeleton bills, which was certainly an interesting starting point. We heard evidence along the lines of, “We don’t know how to define it, but we know it’s happening and we think it probably shouldn’t,” or, “We have concerns that it produces bad law, but we know it works some of the time.” Some told us, “We think framework bills should have a narrow scope but, equally, allow for flexibility.” Finally, some said, “We don’t really know how best to change it, but we think it needs changed.”

Members have to admit that that is an interesting remit at the commencement of an inquiry. Given that starting point, I am delighted with the work that the committee managed to do to get into the minutia and to reach the roots of problems that stem from the lack of detail in bills and from the inadequate funding set out in financial memorandums as a result of that lack of detail. The committee has made some very sensible and achievable recommendations for the Scottish Government.

I will highlight a couple of notable suggestions. First, the committee considers that legislation should, except in very limited circumstances, be set out in a high degree of detail. The minister mentioned that. In the very limited circumstances when a framework approach is taken, it is essential that, when the bill is introduced, there is a full justification of why framework provision is appropriate.

Secondly, the committee suggested that all financial memorandums should include an estimate of any costs arising from delegated powers provisions, based on how those powers are expected to be, or might be, used by the Administration, and it called on the Scottish Government to keep committees updated throughout the legislative process about the estimated costs arising from a bill.

I will expand slightly on the financial memorandum issue, which is one not only for the Finance and Public Administration Committee, whose convener, Kenny Gibson, highlighted in his evidence how framework legislation presents a significant challenge to effective financial scrutiny. That point was echoed by Lloyd Austin of Scottish Environment LINK, who spoke about how the lack of detail in financial memorandums for framework legislation presents a scrutiny challenge for stakeholders. If we cannot adequately scrutinise the money needed for legislation, we run the risk of passing laws simply without there being sufficient funds to achieve the outcomes that they are designed for. All the policy decisions, discussions, debate and amendments throughout the legislative process will be for naught if insufficient funds are allocated. I see that recommendation by the committee as sacrosanct.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-17074, in the name of Stuart McMillan, on behalf of the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee, on its...
Stuart McMillan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) SNP
I am grateful for the opportunity to discuss the work of the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee’s inquiry into framework legislation and Henry VIII po...
Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I compliment the committee on its report. Does Stuart McMillan agree that having a definition of framework legislation, however flawed it might be, is very v...
Stuart McMillan SNP
Yes, I do. The fact that we managed to arrive at some kind of definition is an indication of that. We recognised how challenging it is to arrive at a definit...
Stephen Kerr (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
This might be an unfair question to ask Stuart McMillan, but he said that the Scottish Parliament is no different as regards members’ experiences of dealing ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I can give you back the time for the interventions, Mr McMillan.
Stuart McMillan SNP
Thank you, Presiding Officer. Today, I am speaking on behalf of the committee. I said earlier that we wanted to depoliticise elements of the issue that we a...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Before I call the next speaker, I advise members that we have quite a bit of time in hand, so members can assume that generosity will be baked into the speak...
Finlay Carson (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Con
I welcome the opportunity to speak in this important debate on the DPLR Committee’s recent report on framework legislation and its impact on parliamentary bu...
Michelle Thomson (Falkirk East) (SNP) SNP
I was very interested to hear the definition that the member just gave. Indeed, it probably concurs with the definition that the FPA Committee would have giv...
Finlay Carson Con
In this session, we have found that, in some cases, how guidance or good practice guidelines are set out in secondary legislation is crucial, but often those...
The Minister for Parliamentary Business (Jamie Hepburn) SNP
I am grateful to have the opportunity to respond to the debate on behalf of the Scottish Government. I welcome the remarks of the conveners of both the Deleg...
Michelle Thomson SNP
In some respects, the gentle challenge is, does it really matter? Many of the considerations that we are covering off today are about the efficiency and effe...
Jamie Hepburn SNP
I will come to process, because the point that Michelle Thomson makes speaks to the point that this is about our processes and how things are scrutinised in ...
Finlay Carson Con
I appreciate the anger that stakeholders have that we do not have time in our parliamentary calendar to look at the good food nation plan laid before the Par...
Jamie Hepburn SNP
Mr Carson mentioned earlier that he had written to me. I have responded to that letter, but I do not know whether he has seen my response yet. To be fair, it...
Stephen Kerr Con
I understand what the minister is saying. He speaks in the debate as a minister of the Scottish Government, which I respect, but I am sure that, as a parliam...
Jamie Hepburn SNP
Of course, I may have a perspective on those matters, but I think that it is important to acknowledge that I stand in the chamber as a Scottish Government mi...
Martin Whitfield Lab
The benefit of having a definition is that it would allow there to be much greater agreement before a piece of legislation was presented that it would follow...
Jamie Hepburn SNP
I will be candid: I am not entirely convinced of that. I appreciate the committee’s report, but, with the best will in the world, it has not crystallised how...
Stephen Kerr Con
Will the minister take an intervention?
Jamie Hepburn SNP
The Presiding Officer said that we had a lot of leeway. I have extended quite a lot of it and I have still not got through the committee’s report. I am more ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
We have not exhausted the generosity, but we are getting closer to it.
Stephen Kerr Con
I am grateful, Presiding Officer, and I thank the minister for giving way. There is a clear advantage to knowing whether a bill is a framework bill, and whet...
Jamie Hepburn SNP
First, I assure Mr Kerr that I have no intention of sitting where he is at any time. I think that he makes the point that I am trying to make. Are we going t...
Stephen Kerr Con
That is what happens. The advantage—
Jamie Hepburn SNP
Mr Kerr suggests that that is the case, but I am less convinced that that is a sensible way forward, because there will be plenty of important matters that w...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
You are redefining the meaning of generosity.
Jamie Hepburn SNP
You have been very generous, Presiding Officer. In relation to Henry VIII powers, the committee says that the Scottish Government should “consider what mor...
Roz McCall (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I am delighted to open this committee debate on behalf of the Scottish Conservatives and to note the report that the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committe...