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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 24 April 2025

24 Apr 2025 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers
Hepburn, Jamie SNP Cumbernauld and Kilsyth Watch on SPTV

I will come to process, because the point that Michelle Thomson makes speaks to the point that this is about our processes and how things are scrutinised in this place. I am always up for discussing how things can be improved, but I was merely making a point about whether there has been an increase in frequency of the use of what is referred to as framework legislation. That was referred to by the convener of the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee, and I am responding to that point; it has also been referred to in the report and in wider discourse in the chamber. I am merely responding to the assertion. Although it has been asserted that there has been an increase, I have seen very little evidence to justify that being held to be the case.

I will turn to the issue at hand, which is the appropriateness of and the manner in which we utilise secondary legislation-making powers and the process. Before I come to that, I thank the committee for the work that it has undertaken on the issue during this parliamentary session. It has been a useful exercise for the committee to take away the issue, look at it in the round and then to gather evidence, hear from a variety of sources and bring forward a report. I commend the committee and the clerks who have supported it on that work and, of course, the people who went to the committee with their evidence.

The issues that have been raised in the report could be felt to be rather arcane, dry or dusty technicalities around the legislative process, but it is about more than that. It speaks to the responsibility that we as a Government carry for bringing forward proposals to Parliament for its approval in order to make good and effective law and for explaining as clearly as possible not just what the immediate impact of any proposed legislation will be but the ways in which that legislation might be used in the future. I take that responsibility seriously, the Scottish Government takes that responsibility seriously, and it informs how we approach every bill that we take forward.

It is also important to recognise that we live in the real world, where things change, and that, by necessity, it is sometimes sensible to take delegated powers so that we can adapt to circumstances quickly. Indeed, I think that that was the point that the convener of the Rural Affairs and Islands Committee made. It is appropriate for us to introduce legislation that sets out the broad principles but then relies on us to put things into effect through secondary legislation—I refer, for example, to the payment of benefits, the uprating of benefits, the provision of charges and the registration costs for certain professions. No one would suggest that we come back on a regular basis to set those things by primary legislation, so of course it is sensible that we use secondary legislation to do so.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-17074, in the name of Stuart McMillan, on behalf of the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee, on its...
Stuart McMillan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) SNP
I am grateful for the opportunity to discuss the work of the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee’s inquiry into framework legislation and Henry VIII po...
Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I compliment the committee on its report. Does Stuart McMillan agree that having a definition of framework legislation, however flawed it might be, is very v...
Stuart McMillan SNP
Yes, I do. The fact that we managed to arrive at some kind of definition is an indication of that. We recognised how challenging it is to arrive at a definit...
Stephen Kerr (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
This might be an unfair question to ask Stuart McMillan, but he said that the Scottish Parliament is no different as regards members’ experiences of dealing ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I can give you back the time for the interventions, Mr McMillan.
Stuart McMillan SNP
Thank you, Presiding Officer. Today, I am speaking on behalf of the committee. I said earlier that we wanted to depoliticise elements of the issue that we a...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Before I call the next speaker, I advise members that we have quite a bit of time in hand, so members can assume that generosity will be baked into the speak...
Finlay Carson (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Con
I welcome the opportunity to speak in this important debate on the DPLR Committee’s recent report on framework legislation and its impact on parliamentary bu...
Michelle Thomson (Falkirk East) (SNP) SNP
I was very interested to hear the definition that the member just gave. Indeed, it probably concurs with the definition that the FPA Committee would have giv...
Finlay Carson Con
In this session, we have found that, in some cases, how guidance or good practice guidelines are set out in secondary legislation is crucial, but often those...
The Minister for Parliamentary Business (Jamie Hepburn) SNP
I am grateful to have the opportunity to respond to the debate on behalf of the Scottish Government. I welcome the remarks of the conveners of both the Deleg...
Michelle Thomson SNP
In some respects, the gentle challenge is, does it really matter? Many of the considerations that we are covering off today are about the efficiency and effe...
Jamie Hepburn SNP
I will come to process, because the point that Michelle Thomson makes speaks to the point that this is about our processes and how things are scrutinised in ...
Finlay Carson Con
I appreciate the anger that stakeholders have that we do not have time in our parliamentary calendar to look at the good food nation plan laid before the Par...
Jamie Hepburn SNP
Mr Carson mentioned earlier that he had written to me. I have responded to that letter, but I do not know whether he has seen my response yet. To be fair, it...
Stephen Kerr Con
I understand what the minister is saying. He speaks in the debate as a minister of the Scottish Government, which I respect, but I am sure that, as a parliam...
Jamie Hepburn SNP
Of course, I may have a perspective on those matters, but I think that it is important to acknowledge that I stand in the chamber as a Scottish Government mi...
Martin Whitfield Lab
The benefit of having a definition is that it would allow there to be much greater agreement before a piece of legislation was presented that it would follow...
Jamie Hepburn SNP
I will be candid: I am not entirely convinced of that. I appreciate the committee’s report, but, with the best will in the world, it has not crystallised how...
Stephen Kerr Con
Will the minister take an intervention?
Jamie Hepburn SNP
The Presiding Officer said that we had a lot of leeway. I have extended quite a lot of it and I have still not got through the committee’s report. I am more ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
We have not exhausted the generosity, but we are getting closer to it.
Stephen Kerr Con
I am grateful, Presiding Officer, and I thank the minister for giving way. There is a clear advantage to knowing whether a bill is a framework bill, and whet...
Jamie Hepburn SNP
First, I assure Mr Kerr that I have no intention of sitting where he is at any time. I think that he makes the point that I am trying to make. Are we going t...
Stephen Kerr Con
That is what happens. The advantage—
Jamie Hepburn SNP
Mr Kerr suggests that that is the case, but I am less convinced that that is a sensible way forward, because there will be plenty of important matters that w...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
You are redefining the meaning of generosity.
Jamie Hepburn SNP
You have been very generous, Presiding Officer. In relation to Henry VIII powers, the committee says that the Scottish Government should “consider what mor...
Roz McCall (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I am delighted to open this committee debate on behalf of the Scottish Conservatives and to note the report that the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committe...