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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 24 April 2025

24 Apr 2025 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers
Carson, Finlay Con Galloway and West Dumfries Watch on SPTV

In this session, we have found that, in some cases, how guidance or good practice guidelines are set out in secondary legislation is crucial, but often those things do not come under scrutiny. In some instances, particularly with the likes of NatureScot, there are some who believe that, because of guidance, certain legislation goes above and beyond the spirit of what was passed and what was intended by Parliament.

The Rural Affairs and Islands Committee agrees that there is a place for such legislation, but we need long-term flexibility, too. One example in that respect is the Agriculture and Rural Communities (Scotland) Act 2024, which gave ministers powers to provide agricultural support. In order for that support to be fit for purpose over the longer term, we needed flexibility via regulations. However, without having much detail about how the powers will be exercised and how much the legislation will cost the public purse, the Parliament found it very difficult to take a view on the general principles of that framework legislation.

So, what solutions did we put forward to the scrutiny challenge? We suggested that there be detailed information about the appropriateness, impact and cost of proposed powers or laid documents in primary legislation and/or accompanying documents. The DPLR Committee also recommended consideration of the wider use of the super-affirmative procedure or other opportunities for enhanced scrutiny for proposed powers and framework bills, although that option should be used carefully.

We also suggested a lighter-touch scrutiny process at stage 1, as long as it would enable parliamentarians to take a view on the general principles of legislation. There should be a presumption that placing statutory duties on Scottish ministers to produce a plan should be accompanied by a requirement to lay the documents in Parliament for a certain number of days to allow for parliamentary scrutiny.

Our committee believes that it would be appropriate for some laid documents to be made subject to parliamentary approval. In this parliamentary session, we have found a wide variation in the requirements for laid documents, and setting out some consistency—or, at least, providing explicit logic to explain those variations—would inform our scrutiny. A commitment to co-design with key stakeholders is also important. Finally, as the DPLR Committee also recommended, there should be a presumption that Scottish ministers must review the effectiveness of regulations or other laid documents made under framework legislation.

I will finish my contribution by complimenting the DPLR Committee’s report from the perspective of a subject committee tasked with scrutinising the output of framework legislation. In our submission to the inquiry, we set out the challenges of scrutinising regulations within the 40-day period and called for the accompanying policy notes to set out better financial information. I would have liked to see the challenges that Parliament faces being explored in more detail in the report.

I will conclude by making a point that I have raised a number of times, especially in the Conveners Group, about the lack of oversight or co-ordination of regulations or other laid documents. At its heart, the issue is about how Parliament scrutinises—and, thus, legitimises—the Government’s exercise of statutory powers. Such scrutiny is being squeezed or compromised by a lack of time and a lack of control over when business is timetabled. The problem is exacerbated at the end of each session when an unusually high volume of legislation emerges, as is happening at the moment, and it will be further exacerbated in the future as more powers are exercised via regulations or laid documents. As more legislation pushes the detail of implementation into regulations, or policy detail into laid documents, committees will face even greater pressure on their time.

The Rural Affairs and Islands Committee currently faces such a challenge. We have agreed not to scrutinise two key laid documents this autumn, as we do not have time in our work programme to do so. Such a lack of provision for parliamentary scrutiny and approval risks undermining the fundamental aims and objectives of those policy initiatives, as well as compromising the time that the Parliament and stakeholders can give to scrutinising and approving the framework legislation in the first place. I wrote to the Minister for Parliamentary Business about that on 1 April, and I would appreciate it if he could pick up on that concern in his comments.

15:12  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-17074, in the name of Stuart McMillan, on behalf of the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee, on its...
Stuart McMillan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) SNP
I am grateful for the opportunity to discuss the work of the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee’s inquiry into framework legislation and Henry VIII po...
Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I compliment the committee on its report. Does Stuart McMillan agree that having a definition of framework legislation, however flawed it might be, is very v...
Stuart McMillan SNP
Yes, I do. The fact that we managed to arrive at some kind of definition is an indication of that. We recognised how challenging it is to arrive at a definit...
Stephen Kerr (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
This might be an unfair question to ask Stuart McMillan, but he said that the Scottish Parliament is no different as regards members’ experiences of dealing ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I can give you back the time for the interventions, Mr McMillan.
Stuart McMillan SNP
Thank you, Presiding Officer. Today, I am speaking on behalf of the committee. I said earlier that we wanted to depoliticise elements of the issue that we a...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Before I call the next speaker, I advise members that we have quite a bit of time in hand, so members can assume that generosity will be baked into the speak...
Finlay Carson (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Con
I welcome the opportunity to speak in this important debate on the DPLR Committee’s recent report on framework legislation and its impact on parliamentary bu...
Michelle Thomson (Falkirk East) (SNP) SNP
I was very interested to hear the definition that the member just gave. Indeed, it probably concurs with the definition that the FPA Committee would have giv...
Finlay Carson Con
In this session, we have found that, in some cases, how guidance or good practice guidelines are set out in secondary legislation is crucial, but often those...
The Minister for Parliamentary Business (Jamie Hepburn) SNP
I am grateful to have the opportunity to respond to the debate on behalf of the Scottish Government. I welcome the remarks of the conveners of both the Deleg...
Michelle Thomson SNP
In some respects, the gentle challenge is, does it really matter? Many of the considerations that we are covering off today are about the efficiency and effe...
Jamie Hepburn SNP
I will come to process, because the point that Michelle Thomson makes speaks to the point that this is about our processes and how things are scrutinised in ...
Finlay Carson Con
I appreciate the anger that stakeholders have that we do not have time in our parliamentary calendar to look at the good food nation plan laid before the Par...
Jamie Hepburn SNP
Mr Carson mentioned earlier that he had written to me. I have responded to that letter, but I do not know whether he has seen my response yet. To be fair, it...
Stephen Kerr Con
I understand what the minister is saying. He speaks in the debate as a minister of the Scottish Government, which I respect, but I am sure that, as a parliam...
Jamie Hepburn SNP
Of course, I may have a perspective on those matters, but I think that it is important to acknowledge that I stand in the chamber as a Scottish Government mi...
Martin Whitfield Lab
The benefit of having a definition is that it would allow there to be much greater agreement before a piece of legislation was presented that it would follow...
Jamie Hepburn SNP
I will be candid: I am not entirely convinced of that. I appreciate the committee’s report, but, with the best will in the world, it has not crystallised how...
Stephen Kerr Con
Will the minister take an intervention?
Jamie Hepburn SNP
The Presiding Officer said that we had a lot of leeway. I have extended quite a lot of it and I have still not got through the committee’s report. I am more ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
We have not exhausted the generosity, but we are getting closer to it.
Stephen Kerr Con
I am grateful, Presiding Officer, and I thank the minister for giving way. There is a clear advantage to knowing whether a bill is a framework bill, and whet...
Jamie Hepburn SNP
First, I assure Mr Kerr that I have no intention of sitting where he is at any time. I think that he makes the point that I am trying to make. Are we going t...
Stephen Kerr Con
That is what happens. The advantage—
Jamie Hepburn SNP
Mr Kerr suggests that that is the case, but I am less convinced that that is a sensible way forward, because there will be plenty of important matters that w...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
You are redefining the meaning of generosity.
Jamie Hepburn SNP
You have been very generous, Presiding Officer. In relation to Henry VIII powers, the committee says that the Scottish Government should “consider what mor...
Roz McCall (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I am delighted to open this committee debate on behalf of the Scottish Conservatives and to note the report that the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committe...