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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 24 April 2025

24 Apr 2025 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers
McMillan, Stuart SNP Greenock and Inverclyde Watch on SPTV

I am grateful for the opportunity to discuss the work of the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee’s inquiry into framework legislation and Henry VIII powers. The genesis of the inquiry was a genuine desire of the committee to look at the issue of framework legislation. We hoped that, by taking a step back from any particular bill, with its detail and policy context, we would be able to look at the bigger picture. We hoped that that was a way to slightly depoliticise the issue, recognising that framework legislation has been used by Governments of all stripes over the years, and not just in Scotland.

Indeed, the chair of the House of Lords Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, Lord McLoughlin, whom we met on our committee fact-finding visit to London, said that the change in views in relation to framework legislation—between being in opposition and being in government—was akin to Damascene conversion. Whichever political party is in charge, Oppositions are generally against legislating in such a way, and Governments are in favour of it. However, we also recognised that some members in the Parliament hold a genuine concern about framework elements in bills that have come forward this session, and that there is a perception that those are becoming more common.

We set out to examine a number of key questions including, first, whether framework legislation can be defined; secondly, whether it is, indeed, becoming more common; and thirdly, what might be done to improve scrutiny. That was in relation to both framework primary legislation and framework powers being used to make secondary legislation.

In seeking to explore those questions, the committee was indebted to the thoughtful and interesting responses to our work that we received. As members will know, we heard directly from the convener of the Finance and Public Administration Committee, Kenneth Gibson, and the convener of the Rural Affairs and Islands Committee, Finlay Carson. I am pleased that Finlay Carson will speak in the debate as the convener of that committee.

We also heard from other legislatures across the world, including from Commonwealth Parliamentary Association colleagues. As members know, I highly value the work and engagement of the CPA. The committee was also greatly helped in its work by views from key stakeholder organisations that are at the heart of Scottish policy making; leading academics and think tanks; and eminent legal bodies.

On behalf of all the committee members, I thank everyone who gave their time by providing the committee with written responses, and by speaking with the committee, both informally and as a witness. Although issues that are related to delegated powers might not be widely understood or discussed outside of the political, legal and policy bubbles, the level and quality of the engagement clearly demonstrate how important the scrutiny of delegated powers is. That should impress on all parliamentarians the need to carefully consider delegated powers in the context of scrutinising a bill.

I will repeat a comment that I have made in the past in the chamber: I recommend that every member spends time on the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee, because it clearly increases the understanding and appreciation of how legislation and our Parliament work. In delegating a power, the Parliament is giving away the power to create law in a certain area. Achieving the right balance—by ensuring that powers are only delegated appropriately and that appropriate safeguards are in place—is an important undertaking, and we were glad to see that that significance is understood by many colleagues and stakeholders.

There has been a lot of discussion about what we mean by framework legislation. During the evidence session on 21 January 2025 with Finlay Carson and Kenneth Gibson, Mr Carson highlighted the difficulty perfectly as he alluded to two different definitions of framework legislation. That highlights the key challenge that politicians face when it comes to framework legislation.

After listening to stakeholders, the committee concluded that, although there might not be a single definition and that, even with a definition, there is still scope for reasonable disagreement and grey areas as to whether a provision in a bill meets that definition, it is possible to set out what framework legislation is. In our report, we concluded that it is:

“legislation that sets out the principles for a policy but does not include substantial detail on how that policy will be given practical effect. Instead, this type of legislation seeks to give broad powers to ministers or others to fill in this detail at a later stage”.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-17074, in the name of Stuart McMillan, on behalf of the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee, on its...
Stuart McMillan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) SNP
I am grateful for the opportunity to discuss the work of the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee’s inquiry into framework legislation and Henry VIII po...
Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I compliment the committee on its report. Does Stuart McMillan agree that having a definition of framework legislation, however flawed it might be, is very v...
Stuart McMillan SNP
Yes, I do. The fact that we managed to arrive at some kind of definition is an indication of that. We recognised how challenging it is to arrive at a definit...
Stephen Kerr (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
This might be an unfair question to ask Stuart McMillan, but he said that the Scottish Parliament is no different as regards members’ experiences of dealing ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I can give you back the time for the interventions, Mr McMillan.
Stuart McMillan SNP
Thank you, Presiding Officer. Today, I am speaking on behalf of the committee. I said earlier that we wanted to depoliticise elements of the issue that we a...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Before I call the next speaker, I advise members that we have quite a bit of time in hand, so members can assume that generosity will be baked into the speak...
Finlay Carson (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Con
I welcome the opportunity to speak in this important debate on the DPLR Committee’s recent report on framework legislation and its impact on parliamentary bu...
Michelle Thomson (Falkirk East) (SNP) SNP
I was very interested to hear the definition that the member just gave. Indeed, it probably concurs with the definition that the FPA Committee would have giv...
Finlay Carson Con
In this session, we have found that, in some cases, how guidance or good practice guidelines are set out in secondary legislation is crucial, but often those...
The Minister for Parliamentary Business (Jamie Hepburn) SNP
I am grateful to have the opportunity to respond to the debate on behalf of the Scottish Government. I welcome the remarks of the conveners of both the Deleg...
Michelle Thomson SNP
In some respects, the gentle challenge is, does it really matter? Many of the considerations that we are covering off today are about the efficiency and effe...
Jamie Hepburn SNP
I will come to process, because the point that Michelle Thomson makes speaks to the point that this is about our processes and how things are scrutinised in ...
Finlay Carson Con
I appreciate the anger that stakeholders have that we do not have time in our parliamentary calendar to look at the good food nation plan laid before the Par...
Jamie Hepburn SNP
Mr Carson mentioned earlier that he had written to me. I have responded to that letter, but I do not know whether he has seen my response yet. To be fair, it...
Stephen Kerr Con
I understand what the minister is saying. He speaks in the debate as a minister of the Scottish Government, which I respect, but I am sure that, as a parliam...
Jamie Hepburn SNP
Of course, I may have a perspective on those matters, but I think that it is important to acknowledge that I stand in the chamber as a Scottish Government mi...
Martin Whitfield Lab
The benefit of having a definition is that it would allow there to be much greater agreement before a piece of legislation was presented that it would follow...
Jamie Hepburn SNP
I will be candid: I am not entirely convinced of that. I appreciate the committee’s report, but, with the best will in the world, it has not crystallised how...
Stephen Kerr Con
Will the minister take an intervention?
Jamie Hepburn SNP
The Presiding Officer said that we had a lot of leeway. I have extended quite a lot of it and I have still not got through the committee’s report. I am more ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
We have not exhausted the generosity, but we are getting closer to it.
Stephen Kerr Con
I am grateful, Presiding Officer, and I thank the minister for giving way. There is a clear advantage to knowing whether a bill is a framework bill, and whet...
Jamie Hepburn SNP
First, I assure Mr Kerr that I have no intention of sitting where he is at any time. I think that he makes the point that I am trying to make. Are we going t...
Stephen Kerr Con
That is what happens. The advantage—
Jamie Hepburn SNP
Mr Kerr suggests that that is the case, but I am less convinced that that is a sensible way forward, because there will be plenty of important matters that w...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
You are redefining the meaning of generosity.
Jamie Hepburn SNP
You have been very generous, Presiding Officer. In relation to Henry VIII powers, the committee says that the Scottish Government should “consider what mor...
Roz McCall (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I am delighted to open this committee debate on behalf of the Scottish Conservatives and to note the report that the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committe...