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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 23 April 2025

23 Apr 2025 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
United Kingdom Government Welfare Reforms
McCall, Roz Con Mid Scotland and Fife Watch on SPTV

I am pleased to speak in the debate, and I will direct my remarks to the Scottish Conservative amendment, in the name of Liz Smith.

The amendment correctly highlights the concerns of the Office for Budget Responsibility and the Scottish Fiscal Commission

“about the projected substantial increases in UK and Scottish welfare budgets, the resulting fiscal pressures, and the unsustainability of these budgets in the current economic circumstances”.

That is the fundamental issue before us.

Regardless of which Government proposals we are discussing or the tone of the debate—which has been conciliatory up until now—the debating vigour that is displayed in the chamber and even the verbal tongue lashings and contained heckling will not make an iota of difference to the people of Scotland. That will do nothing to stop their lives becoming harder, nothing to stop them becoming poorer and nothing to reinstall their faith in the decisions that are made by their Governments on their behalf.

In the current economic climate, there are simply insufficient funds. In January this year, the Scottish Fiscal Commission estimated that, in 2029-30, the Scottish Government would be spending £1.7 billion more than it received to pay for devolved welfare. Coupled with Labour’s welfare cuts, that has the deficit growing to £2.1 billion. It will be hard-working, middle-income taxpayers who will be made to pay. They will be squeezed yet again to support the ever-increasing welfare state, and it will be done at the expense of everything that they are trying to do to make their lives and their children’s lives better. Surely, it would be better to increase the number of taxpayers and grow the economy, rather than forcing those who are already stretched to pay more.

We have already heard comments about economic inactivity and, once again, I find myself speaking in a debate on welfare in Scotland and returning to the Social Justice and Social Security Committee report on parental employment. It is a good report, with a clear direction of travel to help parents back into employment. It highlights three specific areas that the Government could focus on that would help parents to get back into work. Not only would parents be earning a living that, statistically, would boost their disposable income and enhance their mental health, but that would add to the Government’s revenue by increasing tax take and reducing the number of those who are dependent on welfare payments.

We agree that welfare payments are an investment in our people and that the returns and benefits for society are evident, but part of that investment must be to better people’s lives in all possible ways—and one of those ways is self-sufficiency. There is a pride that comes from being self-reliant.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-17242, in the name of Shirley-Anne Somerville, on the UK Government welfare reforms. I invite members who...
The Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice (Shirley-Anne Somerville) SNP
I open this important debate with a message of solidarity: I want all disabled people to know that this Government stands with you in opposing the planned UK...
Michael Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lab
He apologised!
Shirley-Anne Somerville SNP
Oh, he apologised, I hear Mr Marra saying from a sedentary position. Well, that makes it fine, does it not? That makes it absolutely fine to say things like ...
Craig Hoy (South Scotland) (Con) Con
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
Shirley-Anne Somerville SNP
I will if I can get some time back. Can I, Presiding Officer?
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Yes.
Craig Hoy Con
I accept the cabinet secretary’s point in respect of the UK Government, but has the Scottish National Party Government not made the same mistake at various p...
Shirley-Anne Somerville SNP
Our benefits bill is not related to whether people are in or out of work—with the greatest respect to Mr Hoy, I think that he is conflating different issues....
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I will put party politics aside for a minute, Presiding Officer. The recent debates about Labour’s welfare changes, highly charged as they have been—and I am...
Shirley-Anne Somerville SNP
Will the member take an intervention on that point?
Liz Smith Con
I will, but I think that I am nearly out of time.
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Very briefly, cabinet secretary.
Shirley-Anne Somerville SNP
I thank Liz Smith for her contribution so far, much of which I agree with. However, the comparison that she has just made is unfair, because the 2.2 per cent...
Liz Smith Con
We do need to be careful, because the point has been raised by the Scottish Fiscal Commission. I am very aware of the saying that all political careers end...
Paul O’Kane (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
During the debate, we have already acknowledged the complexity of social security and the complexities of having a devolved system and a reserved system that...
Liz Smith Con
I entirely agree with that point, but how does that sit with the UK Labour Government’s intention to put more and more costs on to employers, who are the ver...
Paul O’Kane Lab
Liz Smith and I have debated the national insurance increase before, as she has with Mr Marra and other members in the chamber. That choice was made so as no...
Shirley-Anne Somerville SNP
The day before the proposals were unveiled, Mr O’Kane and I were on a panel together, and he did not want to speculate. We do not have to speculate any more—...
Paul O’Kane Lab
The point that I was about to make is that the green paper contains a range of proposals. The cabinet secretary now wants to pick and choose and debate indiv...
Jeremy Balfour (Lothian) (Con) Con
We all want more people to be in employment, particularly those with a disability. However, does Paul O’Kane recognise that getting more people into employme...
Paul O’Kane Lab
I was just coming on to talk about ADP and PIP and trying to understand our devolved context in relation to ADP. The reforms to PIP are at UK level; we have ...
Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green) Green
This afternoon’s debate is a call to conscience. The Scottish Green Party believes in building a society in which everyone can live with dignity; in which co...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
The debate is about a number of competing challenges. It is about dignity for disabled people—particularly those in poverty. It is about balancing the books ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing) SNP
We move to the open debate. Back benchers will have speeches of up to six minutes. 15:36
Collette Stevenson (East Kilbride) (SNP) SNP
Since the election last year, the Labour UK Government has failed to compensate the WASPI women—women against state pension inequality—and has scrapped winte...
Jeremy Balfour Con
I agree with the cabinet secretary that social security is a social investment, but a social investment has to be paid for. We have a £1 billion deficit comi...
Collette Stevenson SNP
The heart of the issue is about political choices, with social security being a human right. I will touch on that later. The DWP’s analysis has shown that i...
Roz McCall (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I am pleased to speak in the debate, and I will direct my remarks to the Scottish Conservative amendment, in the name of Liz Smith. The amendment correctly ...
Shirley-Anne Somerville SNP
Does the member agree with her colleague Jeremy Balfour, who pointed out earlier in the debate that the ADP is not linked to employment, and nor should it be...