Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 23 April 2025
23 Apr 2025 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
United Kingdom Government Welfare Reforms
Liz Smith and I have debated the national insurance increase before, as she has with Mr Marra and other members in the chamber. That choice was made so as not to put the burden of taxation on to working people and other individuals and to ensure instead that, for example, the Parliament could receive a £5 billion uplift in the budget. Those are decisions that we have made and that we have debated in the chamber. We must look at the issues and the system in the round. That is what part of the debate today should be about.
I recognise the concerns. If we are to have a serious debate on the issues, I do not think that the Government motion, which effectively calls for the UK Government to scrap the green paper in its entirety, is a particularly credible way to go about it. We should look at the separate reforms that are proposed—the cabinet secretary outlined in her speech her issue with many of them—because I do not think that we can just take the entire paper and throw out everything that is contained in it.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur)
LD
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-17242, in the name of Shirley-Anne Somerville, on the UK Government welfare reforms. I invite members who...
The Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice (Shirley-Anne Somerville)
SNP
I open this important debate with a message of solidarity: I want all disabled people to know that this Government stands with you in opposing the planned UK...
Michael Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
He apologised!
Shirley-Anne Somerville
SNP
Oh, he apologised, I hear Mr Marra saying from a sedentary position. Well, that makes it fine, does it not? That makes it absolutely fine to say things like ...
Craig Hoy (South Scotland) (Con)
Con
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
Shirley-Anne Somerville
SNP
I will if I can get some time back. Can I, Presiding Officer?
The Deputy Presiding Officer
LD
Yes.
Craig Hoy
Con
I accept the cabinet secretary’s point in respect of the UK Government, but has the Scottish National Party Government not made the same mistake at various p...
Shirley-Anne Somerville
SNP
Our benefits bill is not related to whether people are in or out of work—with the greatest respect to Mr Hoy, I think that he is conflating different issues....
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
I will put party politics aside for a minute, Presiding Officer. The recent debates about Labour’s welfare changes, highly charged as they have been—and I am...
Shirley-Anne Somerville
SNP
Will the member take an intervention on that point?
Liz Smith
Con
I will, but I think that I am nearly out of time.
The Deputy Presiding Officer
LD
Very briefly, cabinet secretary.
Shirley-Anne Somerville
SNP
I thank Liz Smith for her contribution so far, much of which I agree with. However, the comparison that she has just made is unfair, because the 2.2 per cent...
Liz Smith
Con
We do need to be careful, because the point has been raised by the Scottish Fiscal Commission. I am very aware of the saying that all political careers end...
Paul O’Kane (West Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
During the debate, we have already acknowledged the complexity of social security and the complexities of having a devolved system and a reserved system that...
Liz Smith
Con
I entirely agree with that point, but how does that sit with the UK Labour Government’s intention to put more and more costs on to employers, who are the ver...
Paul O’Kane
Lab
Liz Smith and I have debated the national insurance increase before, as she has with Mr Marra and other members in the chamber. That choice was made so as no...
Shirley-Anne Somerville
SNP
The day before the proposals were unveiled, Mr O’Kane and I were on a panel together, and he did not want to speculate. We do not have to speculate any more—...
Paul O’Kane
Lab
The point that I was about to make is that the green paper contains a range of proposals. The cabinet secretary now wants to pick and choose and debate indiv...
Jeremy Balfour (Lothian) (Con)
Con
We all want more people to be in employment, particularly those with a disability. However, does Paul O’Kane recognise that getting more people into employme...
Paul O’Kane
Lab
I was just coming on to talk about ADP and PIP and trying to understand our devolved context in relation to ADP. The reforms to PIP are at UK level; we have ...
Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green)
Green
This afternoon’s debate is a call to conscience. The Scottish Green Party believes in building a society in which everyone can live with dignity; in which co...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD)
LD
The debate is about a number of competing challenges. It is about dignity for disabled people—particularly those in poverty. It is about balancing the books ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing)
SNP
We move to the open debate. Back benchers will have speeches of up to six minutes. 15:36
Collette Stevenson (East Kilbride) (SNP)
SNP
Since the election last year, the Labour UK Government has failed to compensate the WASPI women—women against state pension inequality—and has scrapped winte...
Jeremy Balfour
Con
I agree with the cabinet secretary that social security is a social investment, but a social investment has to be paid for. We have a £1 billion deficit comi...
Collette Stevenson
SNP
The heart of the issue is about political choices, with social security being a human right. I will touch on that later. The DWP’s analysis has shown that i...
Roz McCall (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
I am pleased to speak in the debate, and I will direct my remarks to the Scottish Conservative amendment, in the name of Liz Smith. The amendment correctly ...
Shirley-Anne Somerville
SNP
Does the member agree with her colleague Jeremy Balfour, who pointed out earlier in the debate that the ADP is not linked to employment, and nor should it be...