Hansard

The Convener (Audrey Nicoll) SNP

Good morning, and welcome to the 12th meeting in 2025 of the Criminal Justice Committee. We have received no apologies. Agenda item 1 is continued considera...

The Convener SNP

We start with the group of amendments on the jurisdiction of the sexual offences court. Amendment 157, in the name of Pauline McNeill, is grouped with amendm...

Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab

A number of these amendments seek to amend elements of the sexual offences court, including what it will be able to do and what crimes it will be able to dea...

The Convener SNP

I call the cabinet secretary to speak to amendment 180 and other amendments in the group.

The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs (Angela Constance) SNP

The amendments in this group feature a mixture of substantive and technical amendments related to the offences and cases that the sexual offences court—the S...

The Convener SNP

If no other member wishes to speak, I invite Pauline McNeill to wind up and to press or withdraw amendment 157.

Pauline McNeill Lab

It is hard to know how to respond when there has not been a full debate on my amendments. First, I made an error when I spoke to amendment 157. I do not full...

Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con

I am listening to the debate and genuinely trying to work out what to do for the best. I think that I completely understand Pauline McNeill’s intention. T...

Pauline McNeill Lab

You may remember that, in relation to a previous set of my amendments, I said that the same approach could be achieved by having a sexual offences division o...

Liam Kerr Con

Yes.

Pauline McNeill Lab

You can achieve the same thing. A High Court judge—Lord Bracadale, for example—who sits in the High Court could sit in a newly created sexual offences court ...

Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP

I understand what you are saying, and I totally agree with that. I am now a bit confused about whether you approve of the setting up of a sexual offences cou...

Pauline McNeill Lab

I will rehearse the same argument as I rehearsed last week. I do believe that there should be a specialist element but, as I have argued from the beginning, ...

Rona Mackay SNP

I will repeat what I said last week. I understand your argument, but I do not think that anything different will happen unless the new court is set up, becau...

Pauline McNeill Lab

It is clearly a difference of opinion about how to achieve the same end. I feel as though I am arguing something that was part of last week’s debate—what I a...

Liam Kerr Con

I do not think that you are taking up too much time. This is really interesting, and it is clear that your colleagues are trying to get to the bottom of what...

Pauline McNeill Lab

Yes—that is exactly right.

Liam Kerr Con

Great—thank you.

Katy Clark (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab

Will the member take an intervention?

Pauline McNeill Lab

Yes.

Katy Clark Lab

The cabinet secretary spoke about hierarchy as a negative—she said that we should not have a hierarchy. As Pauline McNeill knows, at the moment, the people w...

Angela Constance SNP

Will the member give way?

Katy Clark Lab

I am actually making an intervention on Pauline McNeill. I will hand back to her.

Pauline McNeill Lab

I am happy to give way to the cabinet secretary.

Angela Constance SNP

I reiterate the point that sheriffs and sheriffs principal sit as temporary judges, so they currently preside over rape cases in the High Court.

Katy Clark Lab

They are sitting as temporary judges and they have been certified for that purpose. Our understanding is that the proposed sexual offences court would have a...

Pauline McNeill Lab

I agree. On the question of hierarchy versus practicalities, it is possible to get both. As I have said, the specialist nature of a sexual offences court can...

The Convener SNP

The question is, that amendment 69 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.

The Convener SNP

There will be a division. For Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) McNeill, Pau...

The Convener SNP

The result of the division is: For 4, Against 4, Abstentions 0. As convener, I use my casting vote to vote against the amendment. Amendment 69 disagreed to...