Committee
Criminal Justice Committee 02 April 2025
02 Apr 2025 · S6 · Criminal Justice Committee
Item of business
Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
It is clearly a difference of opinion about how to achieve the same end. I feel as though I am arguing something that was part of last week’s debate—what I am trying to get at in this group of amendments is that the High Court’s integrity should be protected. This is not just about creating something new—and, by the way, I am absolutely sure that, if there were a new division, there would be a fundamental change. If a new division were to be created in the High Court or the sheriff court for sexual offences, the situation would be different. In the same way, we created the drugs court and now the practice is different. It operates differently.
Convener, I apologise for taking up too much time. I need to make sure that my arguments are understood, albeit that people may disagree with them.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Audrey Nicoll)
SNP
Good morning, and welcome to the 12th meeting in 2025 of the Criminal Justice Committee. We have received no apologies. Agenda item 1 is continued considera...
The Convener
SNP
We start with the group of amendments on the jurisdiction of the sexual offences court. Amendment 157, in the name of Pauline McNeill, is grouped with amendm...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab)
Lab
A number of these amendments seek to amend elements of the sexual offences court, including what it will be able to do and what crimes it will be able to dea...
The Convener
SNP
I call the cabinet secretary to speak to amendment 180 and other amendments in the group.
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs (Angela Constance)
SNP
The amendments in this group feature a mixture of substantive and technical amendments related to the offences and cases that the sexual offences court—the S...
The Convener
SNP
If no other member wishes to speak, I invite Pauline McNeill to wind up and to press or withdraw amendment 157.
Pauline McNeill
Lab
It is hard to know how to respond when there has not been a full debate on my amendments. First, I made an error when I spoke to amendment 157. I do not full...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con)
Con
I am listening to the debate and genuinely trying to work out what to do for the best. I think that I completely understand Pauline McNeill’s intention. T...
Pauline McNeill
Lab
You may remember that, in relation to a previous set of my amendments, I said that the same approach could be achieved by having a sexual offences division o...
Liam Kerr
Con
Yes.
Pauline McNeill
Lab
You can achieve the same thing. A High Court judge—Lord Bracadale, for example—who sits in the High Court could sit in a newly created sexual offences court ...
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
SNP
I understand what you are saying, and I totally agree with that. I am now a bit confused about whether you approve of the setting up of a sexual offences cou...
Pauline McNeill
Lab
I will rehearse the same argument as I rehearsed last week. I do believe that there should be a specialist element but, as I have argued from the beginning, ...
Rona Mackay
SNP
I will repeat what I said last week. I understand your argument, but I do not think that anything different will happen unless the new court is set up, becau...
Pauline McNeill
Lab
It is clearly a difference of opinion about how to achieve the same end. I feel as though I am arguing something that was part of last week’s debate—what I a...
Liam Kerr
Con
I do not think that you are taking up too much time. This is really interesting, and it is clear that your colleagues are trying to get to the bottom of what...
Pauline McNeill
Lab
Yes—that is exactly right.
Liam Kerr
Con
Great—thank you.
Katy Clark (West Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Pauline McNeill
Lab
Yes.
Katy Clark
Lab
The cabinet secretary spoke about hierarchy as a negative—she said that we should not have a hierarchy. As Pauline McNeill knows, at the moment, the people w...
Angela Constance
SNP
Will the member give way?
Katy Clark
Lab
I am actually making an intervention on Pauline McNeill. I will hand back to her.
Pauline McNeill
Lab
I am happy to give way to the cabinet secretary.
Angela Constance
SNP
I reiterate the point that sheriffs and sheriffs principal sit as temporary judges, so they currently preside over rape cases in the High Court.
Katy Clark
Lab
They are sitting as temporary judges and they have been certified for that purpose. Our understanding is that the proposed sexual offences court would have a...
Pauline McNeill
Lab
I agree. On the question of hierarchy versus practicalities, it is possible to get both. As I have said, the specialist nature of a sexual offences court can...
The Convener
SNP
The question is, that amendment 69 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener
SNP
There will be a division. For Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) McNeill, Pau...
The Convener
SNP
The result of the division is: For 4, Against 4, Abstentions 0. As convener, I use my casting vote to vote against the amendment. Amendment 69 disagreed to...