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Committee

Criminal Justice Committee 02 April 2025

02 Apr 2025 · S6 · Criminal Justice Committee
Item of business
Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

It is hard to know how to respond when there has not been a full debate on my amendments. First, I made an error when I spoke to amendment 157. I do not fully understand why my amendments on the separation of the High Court and the sheriff court have been separated in the groupings. I should have said that, as the committee knows, I fully agree with the cabinet secretary about the importance of sexual offences courts being trauma informed, so that we can change the nature of how such offences are dealt with. At the previous committee meeting, I argued that those matters should be decided by a division of the High Court and a division of the sheriff court. I apologise—I do not know why that is not being addressed in this group of amendments; I will deal with it when I speak to amendment 270.

On amendment 69, we all agree that trauma-informed practice is a fundamental basis of the proposal for a new sexual offences court and, in fact, should be afforded to any victims who are brought before the courts. Solicitors and judges will be trained in trauma-informed practice, so I do not understand why the same judges could not try those cases in the High Court. I take the cabinet secretary’s point that, if the Lord Advocate uses the discretion that the bill would afford her, she could indict murder in the sexual offences court, if there was a sexual element to the crime. Judges who are trauma informed could sit in the High Court—for example, the Glasgow High Court could hold a sitting of the sexual offences court, so in other words, the sexual offences court could look exactly the same as the High Court. I do not think that the argument against the amendment is solid.

One of the criticisms that Katy Clark and I have is that what is proposed could just look the same as what already exists. I do not see why there is a substantive argument that murder could be indicted in the sexual offences court, when we could do it the other way around and ensure that judges and practitioners, some of whom would be practising in the sexual offences court, could take such cases in the High Court. The substantive argument made by the senators of the College of Justice, which is clear enough, is that what the policy memorandum says about why the change is required is “anecdotal”.

When we are presiding over such a fundamental change to our criminal justice system, we have to make the changes that we think are right, but we also have to protect the integrity of what is, by and large, a good criminal justice system, with all its faults.

In the same item of business

The Convener (Audrey Nicoll) SNP
Good morning, and welcome to the 12th meeting in 2025 of the Criminal Justice Committee. We have received no apologies. Agenda item 1 is continued considera...
The Convener SNP
We start with the group of amendments on the jurisdiction of the sexual offences court. Amendment 157, in the name of Pauline McNeill, is grouped with amendm...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
A number of these amendments seek to amend elements of the sexual offences court, including what it will be able to do and what crimes it will be able to dea...
The Convener SNP
I call the cabinet secretary to speak to amendment 180 and other amendments in the group.
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs (Angela Constance) SNP
The amendments in this group feature a mixture of substantive and technical amendments related to the offences and cases that the sexual offences court—the S...
The Convener SNP
If no other member wishes to speak, I invite Pauline McNeill to wind up and to press or withdraw amendment 157.
Pauline McNeill Lab
It is hard to know how to respond when there has not been a full debate on my amendments. First, I made an error when I spoke to amendment 157. I do not full...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
I am listening to the debate and genuinely trying to work out what to do for the best. I think that I completely understand Pauline McNeill’s intention. T...
Pauline McNeill Lab
You may remember that, in relation to a previous set of my amendments, I said that the same approach could be achieved by having a sexual offences division o...
Liam Kerr Con
Yes.
Pauline McNeill Lab
You can achieve the same thing. A High Court judge—Lord Bracadale, for example—who sits in the High Court could sit in a newly created sexual offences court ...
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
I understand what you are saying, and I totally agree with that. I am now a bit confused about whether you approve of the setting up of a sexual offences cou...
Pauline McNeill Lab
I will rehearse the same argument as I rehearsed last week. I do believe that there should be a specialist element but, as I have argued from the beginning, ...
Rona Mackay SNP
I will repeat what I said last week. I understand your argument, but I do not think that anything different will happen unless the new court is set up, becau...
Pauline McNeill Lab
It is clearly a difference of opinion about how to achieve the same end. I feel as though I am arguing something that was part of last week’s debate—what I a...
Liam Kerr Con
I do not think that you are taking up too much time. This is really interesting, and it is clear that your colleagues are trying to get to the bottom of what...
Pauline McNeill Lab
Yes—that is exactly right.
Liam Kerr Con
Great—thank you.
Katy Clark (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Pauline McNeill Lab
Yes.
Katy Clark Lab
The cabinet secretary spoke about hierarchy as a negative—she said that we should not have a hierarchy. As Pauline McNeill knows, at the moment, the people w...
Angela Constance SNP
Will the member give way?
Katy Clark Lab
I am actually making an intervention on Pauline McNeill. I will hand back to her.
Pauline McNeill Lab
I am happy to give way to the cabinet secretary.
Angela Constance SNP
I reiterate the point that sheriffs and sheriffs principal sit as temporary judges, so they currently preside over rape cases in the High Court.
Katy Clark Lab
They are sitting as temporary judges and they have been certified for that purpose. Our understanding is that the proposed sexual offences court would have a...
Pauline McNeill Lab
I agree. On the question of hierarchy versus practicalities, it is possible to get both. As I have said, the specialist nature of a sexual offences court can...
The Convener SNP
The question is, that amendment 69 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener SNP
There will be a division. For Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) McNeill, Pau...
The Convener SNP
The result of the division is: For 4, Against 4, Abstentions 0. As convener, I use my casting vote to vote against the amendment. Amendment 69 disagreed to...