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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 17 September 2024 [Draft]

17 Sep 2024 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1
Eagle, Tim Con Highlands and Islands Watch on SPTV

I am absolutely sure that he will. I know from my office staff that he felt that the bill was important.

Although I do not have the same history with the Gaelic language as Donald Cameron, I share his belief that it should be preserved and promoted, not just because of its national importance as one of Scotland’s indigenous languages, but because of its importance within its vernacular communities—almost all of which I represent.

As my colleague Liam Kerr said in his opening remarks, the Scottish Conservatives cautiously welcome the bill, although we share many of the concerns that were outlined by witnesses during evidence sessions at the Education, Children and Young People Committee earlier in the year. The main consideration with respect to the Gaelic language is the concern that the bill as it stands tinkers around the edges and, therefore, risks failing to address all the issues that prevent Gaelic from thriving.

During a committee evidence session, Professor Ó Giollagáin of the University of the Highlands and Islands stated that the bill

“is a rebureaucratisation of the existing set-up, and, as the crisis emerged under the existing set-up, the only way out of the crisis is radical change, and the bill does not amount to radical change.”

He went on to argue that it would be better to

“halt the process as it is and redraft the bill with a view towards addressing the social issues, rather than placing an emphasis on schools and the symbolic value of Gaelic.”—[Official Report, Education, Children and Young People Committee, 1 May 2024; c 30, 31.]

Although I would never go as far as to advocate starting from scratch, I believe that that position should certainly give members food for thought, as should the fact that substantial amendments would be needed should the Parliament pass the bill at stage 1.

However, it was difficult to disagree with much of the evidence that the professor put forward, especially his view that much more emphasis is needed on addressing the social factors that prevent the growth of the Gaelic language. That was a key recommendation of the report, “The Gaelic Crisis in the Vernacular Community”, which was published in 2019 and of which the professor was a lead author.

Others have already touched on the findings of the 2022 census, which showed that there was an increase in the number of people who have some Gaelic skills. However, that is a far cry from what is needed to ensure the language’s long-term future. During a committee evidence session, Professor McLeod of the University of Edinburgh urged a note of caution about the census, which others have picked up on, as, prior to the release of its findings on languages, he stated that the census was a crude instrument. While the aforementioned headline figure might show some positive signs, the fact that the number of people who speak, read and write in Gaelic has increased by only just over 11,000 people in a decade—a third of whom live in Glasgow and Edinburgh—shows that the current policy is not delivering the results that are expected or needed, especially in the Gaelic heartlands.

I turn to the role of the Gaelic board, which came under some scrutiny during the evidence sessions. The Scottish Government has proposed that the board will no longer have responsibility for producing the national Gaelic plan or for providing statutory guidance on Gaelic education. That was broadly welcomed by those who gave evidence to the committee, with the general view being that such changes will mean that the national Gaelic strategy will receive more prominence, and that they will ensure that public institutions take their responsibilities for promoting the Gaelic language more seriously. I understand that the changes have also been broadly accepted by the board and that, in return, the board will receive new reporting powers. However, the fact that responsibility for developing the national strategy for the Gaelic language and Gaelic education will be removed from the board begs a question about the board’s purpose in the future.

We must ensure that we get the bill right, because it has implications not just for the future of the Gaelic language but, importantly for me, for the communities where Gaelic remains a working language. Tackling rural depopulation is one of my driving missions as an MSP, and ensuring that we have a thriving Gaelic language in the vernacular communities is one of several ways to halt the depopulation trend in those areas. That means that the Government must meet people, where they are, in those communities who have real and practical solutions to offer. At present, they feel that they do not have a voice in such debates.

More work is needed on the bill to ensure not only that it is fit to address the challenges that it seeks to address but that it receives wide support from the communities that it will most impact. On the Gaelic language in particular, the Parliament has talked a lot about strategies and planning, but advocates of the language want meaningful action. That is what we need to achieve, and I look forward to playing my part in that.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-14484, in the name of Kate Forbes, on the Scottish Languages Bill at stage 1. I invite members who wish t...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Gaelic (Kate Forbes) SNP
Tha mi a’ cur fàilte air a’ chothrom gus an deasbad seo fhosgladh a thaobh a’ ghluasaid taic a chur ri prionnsapalan farsaing Bile nan Cànan Albannach. Do ...
Sue Webber (Lothian) (Con) Con
For the avoidance of doubt, I confirm that I will be speaking in English this afternoon, so members will not need their headsets. I am delighted to be speak...
Kate Forbes SNP
The member has put on record her willingness for the committee to engage with me at stage 2 to address some its criticisms. I am keen to do that.
Sue Webber Con
I thank the Deputy First Minister for her response. The change that has taken place in the leadership of who is responsible for the bill will help us to work...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
At stage 1, the Parliament considers a narrow point on whether to vote for or against the principles of a bill. In this case, it does so following considerat...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Ind
Does Liam Kerr accept that the bill is, at least, a step in the right direction? He might want to go further or do things differently, but Scots being given ...
Liam Kerr Con
No, I do not accept that. The bill does represent a step in the right direction, but not if we simply homogenise everything under one indivisible term. Both ...
Michael Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Nearly 20 years after the first Gaelic language act, the Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act 2005, the Scottish Languages Bill comes at a critical point for Scotl...
Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green) Green
I thank the clerks for fixing my pass and apologise to colleagues on the Labour benches who were getting distracted by my doing laps around their desks. We ...
Emma Harper (South Scotland) (SNP) SNP
On what the member says about measuring success, there is one thing that I think might be useful. The census used to ask, “Do you speak Scots?”, but now it a...
Ross Greer Green
I am grateful to Emma Harper for that intervention, because the value of the census is massive. While the results from the most recent census told a pretty s...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
We move to the open debate. 15:04
George Adam (Paisley) (SNP) SNP
It is interesting when you look at the debate. When I came to sit on the Education, Children and Young People Committee, it was nearing the end of its consid...
Liam Kerr Con
The member makes a very good point in referring to what aspects of the 2005 act did not work. Can he point me to any report or any evidence that the Governme...
George Adam SNP
I think that the Government has made it pretty obvious what we have to do to move forward with both languages: that is the point of having the bill. An impo...
Stephen Kerr (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
George Adam is giving a stout account of his constituency’s place in Gaeldom, but what is the one thing in the bill that will move the dial for Gaelic? The m...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
George Adam, I will give you the time back for the two interventions.
George Adam SNP
Thank you, Presiding Officer. The important part is that we are talking about it. Gaeldom is here, in the centre of the Scottish Government and the Parliamen...
Tim Eagle (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
I commend the Deputy First Minister for opening the debate in Gaelic. When we speak about languages, it is really important for those who can to speak them i...
Kate Forbes SNP
I will take any excuse to put on record my appreciation for Donald Cameron. We always sought to work together to ensure that Gaelic did not become overly pol...
Tim Eagle Con
I am absolutely sure that he will. I know from my office staff that he felt that the bill was important. Although I do not have the same history with the Ga...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I call Emma Roddick, who joins us remotely. 15:16
Emma Roddick (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) SNP
I start by thanking the Deputy First Minister for meeting me earlier this month to discuss some potential ways to improve the bill.
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Ms Roddick, can I halt you there? There is something up with your microphone or with the way that the sound is playing out in the chamber. The sound is comin...
Emma Roddick SNP
Okay. Can you hear me now?
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
The sound is still coming through our headphones rather than through the chamber speakers.
Emma Roddick SNP
I have tried turning off the interpretation, in case that is the problem.
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
The sound is now coming through both, but better that than it just coming through our headphones.
Emma Roddick SNP
Are you happy with it coming through both?