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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 17 September 2024 [Draft]

17 Sep 2024 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1
Kerr, Liam Con North East Scotland Watch on SPTV

No, I do not accept that. The bill does represent a step in the right direction, but not if we simply homogenise everything under one indivisible term. Both the committee and the witnesses made that point. I say to John Mason that we cannot simply deem everything to be Scots and thereby make dialects such as Doric unrecognisable.

To clarify my point, I highlight that when teachers and authorities are performing their new duties under section 31 of the bill, which are to

“promote, facilitate and support Scots language education”,

they might very well ask which Scots they are to promote. Is it Lallans, Doric or Orcadian? James Wylie of Orkney Islands Council told the committee that Orcadian and Shetlandic are not Scots dialects but separate languages. However, that will not be recognised if they are all to be grouped under the term “Scots”.

Such ambiguity is replicated by the conveying of official status on Gaelic and Scots by sections 1 and 26 respectively. Nowhere is it defined what “official status” actually means. Members might feel that such a lack of clarity is not so important, but the committee found itself very concerned as to what obligations the strategies, standards and guidance that will be developed pursuant to the bill will place on public bodies. That is not clear, and neither are the associated costs.

The financial memorandum sets out additional costs that will arise from the bill—that is, the whole bill, as it applies to both Gaelic and Scots—at £700,000 over five years. It is apparent, though, that that figure represents an estimate of the cost to develop the strategies and the like—in other words, additional costs for existing people. It is not the cost of delivering those strategies or the extra duties that are imposed when an area of linguistic significance is designated.

In Ireland, additional resources are put in place to ensure better support for the use of Irish in Gaeltacht areas. In contrast, the bill does not anticipate any additional spend for designating such an area here, which is bizarre. The committee found that some of the activities that would take place in an ALS are already there; that it is not clear that legislation is required; and that stakeholders are unclear as to what an ALS practically means, what it will look like or the duties that are imposed. Therefore if it is accepted—as I think the cabinet secretary did in her opening remarks—that, once a local authority has designated an ALS, that will create additional duties, then, without commensurate additional funding for tools, mechanisms or employees, our cash-strapped local councils might be reluctant so to designate.

The committee has asked the Scottish Government to revisit the costs set out in the financial memorandum and to provide, prior to stage 2, further detail on the full financial costs associated with the bill’s provisions. I find that approach, and the idea that new and significant duties might be brought in at stage 2, a pretty unsatisfactory way of making law, but we are where we are, and it is to be hoped that the Government will comply.

I will conclude where I started. The bill’s principles are so general that people really cannot argue with them, but they are arguing that the bill is symbolic and will not ultimately achieve its laudable aims even if it does not do much damage, either.

I believe that it is preferable for the Parliament to legislate for outcomes, rather than optics—and that leads me to my final thought. A significant number of people have asked me whether—given that the attainment gap is widening, free meals for primary school kids have gone the way of laptops and push-bikes, violence is endemic in our schools, teacher numbers are plummeting and child poverty remains where it was in 2007—part 2 of the Scottish Languages Bill, in particular, represents the best use of the limited, perhaps very limited, time left in this session. I wonder if, in closing, the Deputy First Minister might give them an answer.

14:50  

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-14484, in the name of Kate Forbes, on the Scottish Languages Bill at stage 1. I invite members who wish t...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Gaelic (Kate Forbes) SNP
Tha mi a’ cur fàilte air a’ chothrom gus an deasbad seo fhosgladh a thaobh a’ ghluasaid taic a chur ri prionnsapalan farsaing Bile nan Cànan Albannach. Do ...
Sue Webber (Lothian) (Con) Con
For the avoidance of doubt, I confirm that I will be speaking in English this afternoon, so members will not need their headsets. I am delighted to be speak...
Kate Forbes SNP
The member has put on record her willingness for the committee to engage with me at stage 2 to address some its criticisms. I am keen to do that.
Sue Webber Con
I thank the Deputy First Minister for her response. The change that has taken place in the leadership of who is responsible for the bill will help us to work...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
At stage 1, the Parliament considers a narrow point on whether to vote for or against the principles of a bill. In this case, it does so following considerat...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Ind
Does Liam Kerr accept that the bill is, at least, a step in the right direction? He might want to go further or do things differently, but Scots being given ...
Liam Kerr Con
No, I do not accept that. The bill does represent a step in the right direction, but not if we simply homogenise everything under one indivisible term. Both ...
Michael Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Nearly 20 years after the first Gaelic language act, the Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act 2005, the Scottish Languages Bill comes at a critical point for Scotl...
Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green) Green
I thank the clerks for fixing my pass and apologise to colleagues on the Labour benches who were getting distracted by my doing laps around their desks. We ...
Emma Harper (South Scotland) (SNP) SNP
On what the member says about measuring success, there is one thing that I think might be useful. The census used to ask, “Do you speak Scots?”, but now it a...
Ross Greer Green
I am grateful to Emma Harper for that intervention, because the value of the census is massive. While the results from the most recent census told a pretty s...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
We move to the open debate. 15:04
George Adam (Paisley) (SNP) SNP
It is interesting when you look at the debate. When I came to sit on the Education, Children and Young People Committee, it was nearing the end of its consid...
Liam Kerr Con
The member makes a very good point in referring to what aspects of the 2005 act did not work. Can he point me to any report or any evidence that the Governme...
George Adam SNP
I think that the Government has made it pretty obvious what we have to do to move forward with both languages: that is the point of having the bill. An impo...
Stephen Kerr (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
George Adam is giving a stout account of his constituency’s place in Gaeldom, but what is the one thing in the bill that will move the dial for Gaelic? The m...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
George Adam, I will give you the time back for the two interventions.
George Adam SNP
Thank you, Presiding Officer. The important part is that we are talking about it. Gaeldom is here, in the centre of the Scottish Government and the Parliamen...
Tim Eagle (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
I commend the Deputy First Minister for opening the debate in Gaelic. When we speak about languages, it is really important for those who can to speak them i...
Kate Forbes SNP
I will take any excuse to put on record my appreciation for Donald Cameron. We always sought to work together to ensure that Gaelic did not become overly pol...
Tim Eagle Con
I am absolutely sure that he will. I know from my office staff that he felt that the bill was important. Although I do not have the same history with the Ga...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I call Emma Roddick, who joins us remotely. 15:16
Emma Roddick (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) SNP
I start by thanking the Deputy First Minister for meeting me earlier this month to discuss some potential ways to improve the bill.
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Ms Roddick, can I halt you there? There is something up with your microphone or with the way that the sound is playing out in the chamber. The sound is comin...
Emma Roddick SNP
Okay. Can you hear me now?
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
The sound is still coming through our headphones rather than through the chamber speakers.
Emma Roddick SNP
I have tried turning off the interpretation, in case that is the problem.
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
The sound is now coming through both, but better that than it just coming through our headphones.
Emma Roddick SNP
Are you happy with it coming through both?