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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 17 September 2024 [Draft]

17 Sep 2024 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Scottish Languages Bill: Stage 1

For the avoidance of doubt, I confirm that I will be speaking in English this afternoon, so members will not need their headsets.

I am delighted to be speaking on behalf of the Education, Children and Young People Committee. I thank my colleagues for their diligent work on the bill so far, and I thank all the people and organisations who provided evidence, either in person or by responding to our call for views. We are also grateful to the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee and the Finance and Public Administration Committee for their work to scrutinise the bill and for sharing their conclusions and recommendations timeously so that we could reflect on them when considering our report.

As our report makes clear, the committee supports the general principles of the bill, and its aim

“to provide further support for Scotland’s indigenous languages, Gaelic and Scots.”

However, we believe that the bill would have limited effect in its current form. Although stakeholders told us of the symbolic value of declaring those languages to be official, particularly in relation to Scots, witnesses also highlighted the long-standing challenges around funding for Scots and Gaelic. Many cited Bòrd na Gàidhlig’s budget as an example. It has remained largely stable for the past 17 years, rising from £4.4 million in 2006-07 to £5.1 million in 2024-25. Had it kept pace with inflation, the annual budget would now be around £7.5 million. The Bòrd stated that, as a result, it is constrained in the support that it can give to community and other projects. In its most recent funding cycle, for example, it could fund—or part fund—only 39 per cent of the projects that had applied.

Witnesses stated that, without more resources, the aspiration of the bill would be undermined. The limited costings set out in the financial memorandum did nothing to allay those concerns. On its own, symbolism will not be sufficient to address the challenges—particularly for Gaelic, which is in a perilous position. It requires support to ensure an increase in both the number of speakers and the fluency of their language skills.

On fluency, the committee noted that the evidence highlighted the desire for speakers to have more “functional fluency” in Gaelic as an outcome of Gaelic-medium education—GME, as we will probably hear it referred to throughout the afternoon. That is, that speakers should be able to use the language in everyday situations. The committee therefore recommended

“that the Scottish Government include this as one of the identifiable outcomes within the strategy and to develop a consistent national measure for this.”

The committee was also struck by the repeated requests, from organisations and individuals alike, for much more clarity in the bill, whether in relation to the content of the strategies, standards and guidance that will be pursuant to the bill, its associated costs or indeed what an area of linguistic significance might look like within local authorities in which there are proportionately fewer Gaelic speakers. Many questions are still to be answered.

The committee therefore notes that the response from the Scottish Government included illustrative examples of the kinds of measures that could be included in the standards and guidance. Those were helpful. They encompassed a wide range of areas, including publications, community development, online materials and impact assessments. In relation to education, the areas that were covered include GME access, provision, teacher requirements and catchments. In her opening remarks, the Deputy First Minister made reference to some of the GME provisions.

Many highlighted the potential for the bill to provide more coherent policy in support of both languages and associated dialects, with national strategies being authored by the Scottish Government. Although education is critical, it is hoped that such coherence will ensure that areas such as housing, infrastructure and economic policy are also considered when taking steps to support communities. Such steps could, in turn, support those languages to thrive.

In its response to our stage 1 report, the Scottish Government has said that it is

“keen to explore the extent to which infrastructural issues can be included in standards and strategy”,

and the committee looks forward to hearing more about the potential for those to feature in Gaelic language plans in areas of linguistic significance.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-14484, in the name of Kate Forbes, on the Scottish Languages Bill at stage 1. I invite members who wish t...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Gaelic (Kate Forbes) SNP
Tha mi a’ cur fàilte air a’ chothrom gus an deasbad seo fhosgladh a thaobh a’ ghluasaid taic a chur ri prionnsapalan farsaing Bile nan Cànan Albannach. Do ...
Sue Webber (Lothian) (Con) Con
For the avoidance of doubt, I confirm that I will be speaking in English this afternoon, so members will not need their headsets. I am delighted to be speak...
Kate Forbes SNP
The member has put on record her willingness for the committee to engage with me at stage 2 to address some its criticisms. I am keen to do that.
Sue Webber Con
I thank the Deputy First Minister for her response. The change that has taken place in the leadership of who is responsible for the bill will help us to work...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
At stage 1, the Parliament considers a narrow point on whether to vote for or against the principles of a bill. In this case, it does so following considerat...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Ind
Does Liam Kerr accept that the bill is, at least, a step in the right direction? He might want to go further or do things differently, but Scots being given ...
Liam Kerr Con
No, I do not accept that. The bill does represent a step in the right direction, but not if we simply homogenise everything under one indivisible term. Both ...
Michael Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Nearly 20 years after the first Gaelic language act, the Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act 2005, the Scottish Languages Bill comes at a critical point for Scotl...
Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green) Green
I thank the clerks for fixing my pass and apologise to colleagues on the Labour benches who were getting distracted by my doing laps around their desks. We ...
Emma Harper (South Scotland) (SNP) SNP
On what the member says about measuring success, there is one thing that I think might be useful. The census used to ask, “Do you speak Scots?”, but now it a...
Ross Greer Green
I am grateful to Emma Harper for that intervention, because the value of the census is massive. While the results from the most recent census told a pretty s...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
We move to the open debate. 15:04
George Adam (Paisley) (SNP) SNP
It is interesting when you look at the debate. When I came to sit on the Education, Children and Young People Committee, it was nearing the end of its consid...
Liam Kerr Con
The member makes a very good point in referring to what aspects of the 2005 act did not work. Can he point me to any report or any evidence that the Governme...
George Adam SNP
I think that the Government has made it pretty obvious what we have to do to move forward with both languages: that is the point of having the bill. An impo...
Stephen Kerr (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
George Adam is giving a stout account of his constituency’s place in Gaeldom, but what is the one thing in the bill that will move the dial for Gaelic? The m...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
George Adam, I will give you the time back for the two interventions.
George Adam SNP
Thank you, Presiding Officer. The important part is that we are talking about it. Gaeldom is here, in the centre of the Scottish Government and the Parliamen...
Tim Eagle (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
I commend the Deputy First Minister for opening the debate in Gaelic. When we speak about languages, it is really important for those who can to speak them i...
Kate Forbes SNP
I will take any excuse to put on record my appreciation for Donald Cameron. We always sought to work together to ensure that Gaelic did not become overly pol...
Tim Eagle Con
I am absolutely sure that he will. I know from my office staff that he felt that the bill was important. Although I do not have the same history with the Ga...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I call Emma Roddick, who joins us remotely. 15:16
Emma Roddick (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) SNP
I start by thanking the Deputy First Minister for meeting me earlier this month to discuss some potential ways to improve the bill.
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Ms Roddick, can I halt you there? There is something up with your microphone or with the way that the sound is playing out in the chamber. The sound is comin...
Emma Roddick SNP
Okay. Can you hear me now?
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
The sound is still coming through our headphones rather than through the chamber speakers.
Emma Roddick SNP
I have tried turning off the interpretation, in case that is the problem.
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
The sound is now coming through both, but better that than it just coming through our headphones.
Emma Roddick SNP
Are you happy with it coming through both?