Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 27 March 2025
27 Mar 2025 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I have been very clear that, as the process requires, I am willing to engage with the member in charge of the bill on those matters and will do so immediately and at pace.
I want to talk through some of the significant challenges that I have previously discussed with the member. Turning first to financing, the bill as introduced is unaffordable. We need to remember that the bill does two things: it places a duty on education authorities and the managers of grant-aided schools to secure the provision of outdoor learning opportunities, which many schools across the country already offer, and it places a duty on the Scottish Government to fund that. There are known gaps in the bill’s financial modelling relating to the cost of staffing, the impact of inflation and the lack of modelling of additional costs to accommodate pupils with ASN, as well as other ancillary costs. Until more clarity can be provided, we cannot commit to financing a proposal for which the true costs are as yet unknown.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing)
SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-16789, in the name of Liz Smith, on the Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill at stage ...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
Before I move the motion in my name, I intimate that I will spend my opening speech talking about the principles of the bill and that, throughout the debate ...
Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
Will Liz Smith articulate why the bill proposes opportunities—which are perhaps needed in Scotland even more than they are in other areas of the United Kingd...
Liz Smith
Con
Absolutely. Martin Whitfield has made a very good point. I will come to the curriculum for excellence a little later. It is about what not just young people...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind)
Ind
Will the member take an intervention?
Liz Smith
Con
I will not just now, if Mr Mason does not mind. He has asked some interesting and important questions about the bill, and I will come back to them. I have s...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
SNP
I call Douglas Ross to speak on behalf of the Education, Children and Young People Committee. 15:33
Douglas Ross (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Con
I am speaking on behalf of the Education, Children and Young People Committee. I begin by speaking about one of our members, Keith Brown, who recently joined...
Martin Whitfield
Lab
As an add-on to my earlier intervention, was the committee satisfied that outdoor education fulfils many of the requirements of the curriculum for excellence...
Douglas Ross
Con
We absolutely were. That came across in the evidence sessions that we held and in the information that we gathered during those sessions. I hope that our rep...
The Minister for Children, Young People and The Promise (Natalie Don-Innes)
SNP
I apologise for missing the very beginning of the debate. Before I begin, I will take a moment to pay tribute to Christina McKelvie. She was a wonderful wom...
Liz Smith
Con
I am grateful to the minister, because I think that the Scottish Government has moved its position. I am more than willing to engage on the challenges, as I ...
Natalie Don-Innes
SNP
Absolutely—I was going to set that out. I am willing to start the discussions right away. We have had good engagement to date, and I am willing to continue t...
Douglas Ross
Con
Is the minister able to explain how the process will work? We have a period of only six months. If no action is taken and no financial resolution is lodged, ...
Natalie Don-Innes
SNP
I have been very clear that, as the process requires, I am willing to engage with the member in charge of the bill on those matters and will do so immediatel...
John Mason
Ind
Will the member take an intervention?
Natalie Don-Innes
SNP
I need to make a little progress. Members across the chamber would rightly be critical if, in an alternative scenario, the Government were to sign up to a b...
Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab)
Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Miles Briggs (Lothian) (Con)
Con
Will the member give way?
Natalie Don-Innes
SNP
I will take the intervention from Miles Briggs.
Miles Briggs
Con
I thank the minister for taking the intervention. Does she recognise that the second-largest council in Scotland, the City of Edinburgh Council, provides out...
Natalie Don-Innes
SNP
Absolutely, and I appreciate that lots of them do it. However, as I said, the bill would be unaffordable for the Scottish Government to fund. I ask members w...
Miles Briggs (Lothian) (Con)
Con
I begin by paying tribute to Christina McKelvie. We were all shocked when we heard the news, and I want to send my condolences at this difficult time to fell...
Carol Mochan (South Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
The member makes a very good point. Does he agree that it might be possible for us to help local authorities to engage in shared activities to enable some of...
Miles Briggs
Con
Absolutely. The visits that the committee undertook showed that it is not the case that there is one facility for each council—we are talking about shared fa...
Brian Whittle (South Scotland) (Con)
Con
Will Miles Briggs give way on that point?
Miles Briggs
Con
If there is time in hand.
The Deputy Presiding Officer
SNP
I am afraid that we have very limited time.
Miles Briggs
Con
I am sorry in that case—I cannot. In the light of the lessons from that study, I believe that, as a Parliament, we need to understand that the proposed expe...
Brian Whittle
Con
In listening to Miles Briggs, I was struck by a quote from the president of World Athletics and International Olympic Committee president-elect, Seb Coe, who...