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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 27 March 2025

27 Mar 2025 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Ross, Douglas Con Highlands and Islands Watch on SPTV

I am speaking on behalf of the Education, Children and Young People Committee. I begin by speaking about one of our members, Keith Brown, who recently joined the committee. On behalf of the committee, I offer our support and sympathies to him following the terrible news that we heard this morning about Christina McKelvie, as well as to Christina’s sons, Jack and Lewis, and her two grandchildren, Maeve and Leo. Keith has been rightly missing from committee meetings in the past couple of weeks as he spent precious time with Christina. We wish him all the very best to get through these challenging times, and I hope that we will welcome him back in the near future.

I thank Liz Smith, as the member in charge, for introducing the bill, which has given the committee the opportunity to discuss the important issue of how to ensure equal access to residential outdoor education for pupils. I also thank my fellow committee colleagues for their diligent work on the bill and all the individuals and organisations who provided evidence, either in person or by responding to our calls for views, especially the numerous pupils who wrote in to share with the committee their positive experiences of outdoor education.

The committee would also like to thank Scottish Outdoor Education Centres and its team, who all generously gave their time and shared their insights when the committee visited Broomlee outdoor education centre. Lastly, the committee is grateful to the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee and the Finance and Public Administration Committee for their work in scrutinising the bill and sharing their conclusions in a timeous manner so that we could reflect them when we were considering our report.

I say at the outset that the whole committee recognised the value of offering children and young people residential outdoor education. However, there was some divergence in views on how that should be funded.

Turning to the bill, as Liz Smith spoke passionately about, its main aim is to ensure that all pupils in state and grant-aided schools have the chance to experience at least four nights and five days of residential outdoor education during their school career. I should point out that the bill does not make it compulsory for pupils to attend residential outdoor education, but there must be an opportunity to do so.

During the committee sessions, many of us spoke about our experiences of going to residential outdoor centres as young people. I kept my story for today’s debate, because I did not want to introduce it at committee stage. I went to Abernethy. I attended a small primary school in Moray called Alves primary school, which was so small that we had to join up with Dallas primary school to have enough pupils to go. Unfortunately, my twin sister, who was in the same class as me, fell and broke her collarbone. I used most of my time on that trip trying to get some sympathy, saying that I had referred pain because my twin was in hospital being treated for her broken collarbone. That is one memory that I have from my visit to a residential outdoor centre.

The interest and passion that Liz Smith has shown were replicated by all members of the committee, who have had their own experiences of attending outdoor centres and know of constituents’ experiences of that. That has brought a lot to the debate. We saw that in our committee sessions and in the visits that the committee made as part of our scrutiny.

The stage 1 report makes it clear that the benefits for pupils and staff are considerable. They include building pupils’ confidence and developing the teacher-pupil relationship—that happens while they are attending an outdoor residential centre, but continues back in the classroom, sometimes for the entirety of a pupil’s time at school. We have also noted the improvements in attainment. Given those life-changing benefits, we said that all pupils should have the opportunity to experience residential outdoor education, which should be linked to the existing curriculum at some point in their school career. We welcome the inclusive approach that has been taken in the bill.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-16789, in the name of Liz Smith, on the Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill at stage ...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
Before I move the motion in my name, I intimate that I will spend my opening speech talking about the principles of the bill and that, throughout the debate ...
Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Will Liz Smith articulate why the bill proposes opportunities—which are perhaps needed in Scotland even more than they are in other areas of the United Kingd...
Liz Smith Con
Absolutely. Martin Whitfield has made a very good point. I will come to the curriculum for excellence a little later. It is about what not just young people...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Ind
Will the member take an intervention?
Liz Smith Con
I will not just now, if Mr Mason does not mind. He has asked some interesting and important questions about the bill, and I will come back to them. I have s...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call Douglas Ross to speak on behalf of the Education, Children and Young People Committee. 15:33
Douglas Ross (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
I am speaking on behalf of the Education, Children and Young People Committee. I begin by speaking about one of our members, Keith Brown, who recently joined...
Martin Whitfield Lab
As an add-on to my earlier intervention, was the committee satisfied that outdoor education fulfils many of the requirements of the curriculum for excellence...
Douglas Ross Con
We absolutely were. That came across in the evidence sessions that we held and in the information that we gathered during those sessions. I hope that our rep...
The Minister for Children, Young People and The Promise (Natalie Don-Innes) SNP
I apologise for missing the very beginning of the debate. Before I begin, I will take a moment to pay tribute to Christina McKelvie. She was a wonderful wom...
Liz Smith Con
I am grateful to the minister, because I think that the Scottish Government has moved its position. I am more than willing to engage on the challenges, as I ...
Natalie Don-Innes SNP
Absolutely—I was going to set that out. I am willing to start the discussions right away. We have had good engagement to date, and I am willing to continue t...
Douglas Ross Con
Is the minister able to explain how the process will work? We have a period of only six months. If no action is taken and no financial resolution is lodged, ...
Natalie Don-Innes SNP
I have been very clear that, as the process requires, I am willing to engage with the member in charge of the bill on those matters and will do so immediatel...
John Mason Ind
Will the member take an intervention?
Natalie Don-Innes SNP
I need to make a little progress. Members across the chamber would rightly be critical if, in an alternative scenario, the Government were to sign up to a b...
Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Miles Briggs (Lothian) (Con) Con
Will the member give way?
Natalie Don-Innes SNP
I will take the intervention from Miles Briggs.
Miles Briggs Con
I thank the minister for taking the intervention. Does she recognise that the second-largest council in Scotland, the City of Edinburgh Council, provides out...
Natalie Don-Innes SNP
Absolutely, and I appreciate that lots of them do it. However, as I said, the bill would be unaffordable for the Scottish Government to fund. I ask members w...
Miles Briggs (Lothian) (Con) Con
I begin by paying tribute to Christina McKelvie. We were all shocked when we heard the news, and I want to send my condolences at this difficult time to fell...
Carol Mochan (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
The member makes a very good point. Does he agree that it might be possible for us to help local authorities to engage in shared activities to enable some of...
Miles Briggs Con
Absolutely. The visits that the committee undertook showed that it is not the case that there is one facility for each council—we are talking about shared fa...
Brian Whittle (South Scotland) (Con) Con
Will Miles Briggs give way on that point?
Miles Briggs Con
If there is time in hand.
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I am afraid that we have very limited time.
Miles Briggs Con
I am sorry in that case—I cannot. In the light of the lessons from that study, I believe that, as a Parliament, we need to understand that the proposed expe...
Brian Whittle Con
In listening to Miles Briggs, I was struck by a quote from the president of World Athletics and International Olympic Committee president-elect, Seb Coe, who...