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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 27 March 2025

27 Mar 2025 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Smith, Liz Con Mid Scotland and Fife Watch on SPTV

Absolutely. Martin Whitfield has made a very good point. I will come to the curriculum for excellence a little later.

It is about what not just young people but their teachers are saying, no matter the social background of their primary school pupils. Alex Stark, the headteacher of Tinto primary school, said:

“We strongly believe that at least one residential experience should be the right of every child. That’s because we see our pupils grow in such different ways and especially in confidence, resilience and independence and all of that helps so much when we get back to school.”

Secondly, the current set-up is not delivering well enough when it comes to residential opportunities. Despite the moves that were made to improve matters when the Scottish Government’s vision for outdoor learning was produced in 2010, and the excellent job that has been done by some schools, significant gaps remain. There is considerable inequity across provision—most especially for pupils with special needs—and wide variation in resource provision across different local authorities. There is also inequity of provision between the independent school sector, in which residential outdoor education is embedded in the curriculum, and too many state schools, in which, despite very willing intent among many teachers, there is very little provision. That is simply not fair, especially given that the John Muir award has been paused for some months.

I turn to the Education, Children and Young People Committee’s very helpful report and to the challenges that members want to have addressed. I will develop my ideas further in my closing speech.

First, on funding and the need to find a commitment of £40 million, I am told that there is no money. Of course, that is a matter of priority within the Scottish Government’s spending commitments. I have pointed out to ministers that quite a high percentage of pupil equity funding—which I have supported and believe to have been generous—is used by headteachers to fund a variety of residential experiences. I consider that that reflects the recognition by schools of the importance of residentials.

I also flag up the Scottish Parliament information centre’s statistics on PEF, which show that, in 2020-21, there was an underspend of £43.4 million, with that money being carried over. In 2023-24, £30 million of pupil equity funding was reprofiled into the local government attainment grant and used for public sector pay increases, as was intimated to the Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee. The minister might want to comment on that later.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-16789, in the name of Liz Smith, on the Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill at stage ...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
Before I move the motion in my name, I intimate that I will spend my opening speech talking about the principles of the bill and that, throughout the debate ...
Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Will Liz Smith articulate why the bill proposes opportunities—which are perhaps needed in Scotland even more than they are in other areas of the United Kingd...
Liz Smith Con
Absolutely. Martin Whitfield has made a very good point. I will come to the curriculum for excellence a little later. It is about what not just young people...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Ind
Will the member take an intervention?
Liz Smith Con
I will not just now, if Mr Mason does not mind. He has asked some interesting and important questions about the bill, and I will come back to them. I have s...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call Douglas Ross to speak on behalf of the Education, Children and Young People Committee. 15:33
Douglas Ross (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
I am speaking on behalf of the Education, Children and Young People Committee. I begin by speaking about one of our members, Keith Brown, who recently joined...
Martin Whitfield Lab
As an add-on to my earlier intervention, was the committee satisfied that outdoor education fulfils many of the requirements of the curriculum for excellence...
Douglas Ross Con
We absolutely were. That came across in the evidence sessions that we held and in the information that we gathered during those sessions. I hope that our rep...
The Minister for Children, Young People and The Promise (Natalie Don-Innes) SNP
I apologise for missing the very beginning of the debate. Before I begin, I will take a moment to pay tribute to Christina McKelvie. She was a wonderful wom...
Liz Smith Con
I am grateful to the minister, because I think that the Scottish Government has moved its position. I am more than willing to engage on the challenges, as I ...
Natalie Don-Innes SNP
Absolutely—I was going to set that out. I am willing to start the discussions right away. We have had good engagement to date, and I am willing to continue t...
Douglas Ross Con
Is the minister able to explain how the process will work? We have a period of only six months. If no action is taken and no financial resolution is lodged, ...
Natalie Don-Innes SNP
I have been very clear that, as the process requires, I am willing to engage with the member in charge of the bill on those matters and will do so immediatel...
John Mason Ind
Will the member take an intervention?
Natalie Don-Innes SNP
I need to make a little progress. Members across the chamber would rightly be critical if, in an alternative scenario, the Government were to sign up to a b...
Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Miles Briggs (Lothian) (Con) Con
Will the member give way?
Natalie Don-Innes SNP
I will take the intervention from Miles Briggs.
Miles Briggs Con
I thank the minister for taking the intervention. Does she recognise that the second-largest council in Scotland, the City of Edinburgh Council, provides out...
Natalie Don-Innes SNP
Absolutely, and I appreciate that lots of them do it. However, as I said, the bill would be unaffordable for the Scottish Government to fund. I ask members w...
Miles Briggs (Lothian) (Con) Con
I begin by paying tribute to Christina McKelvie. We were all shocked when we heard the news, and I want to send my condolences at this difficult time to fell...
Carol Mochan (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
The member makes a very good point. Does he agree that it might be possible for us to help local authorities to engage in shared activities to enable some of...
Miles Briggs Con
Absolutely. The visits that the committee undertook showed that it is not the case that there is one facility for each council—we are talking about shared fa...
Brian Whittle (South Scotland) (Con) Con
Will Miles Briggs give way on that point?
Miles Briggs Con
If there is time in hand.
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I am afraid that we have very limited time.
Miles Briggs Con
I am sorry in that case—I cannot. In the light of the lessons from that study, I believe that, as a Parliament, we need to understand that the proposed expe...
Brian Whittle Con
In listening to Miles Briggs, I was struck by a quote from the president of World Athletics and International Olympic Committee president-elect, Seb Coe, who...