Committee
Criminal Justice Committee 12 March 2025 [Draft]
12 Mar 2025 · S6 · Criminal Justice Committee
Item of business
Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
We are off to a good start—we have found some agreement on my first amendment. I hope that that has set the tone for the rest of the morning.
I take on board the cabinet secretary’s point. I am pleased that the Government accepts the need for a charter. I see it very much as a non-binding but moral contract with the public. I am very happy to work with the Government on the wording of an amendment.
I take on board the point about the introduction of the charter. I have sat on a number of recruiting panels in the Parliament for other public roles, so I know that it can take time to get the right person, and we do want the right person in that role. It feels reasonable that the charter should be produced 12 months after that person takes office. If my or the Government’s team would like to propose an alternative amendment ahead of stage 3, I will bring it back to the Parliament, and I hope that we will get agreement on it.
Amendment 234, by agreement, withdrawn.
Section 10—Carrying out investigations
Amendments 102, 103 and 11 not moved.
Section 10 agreed to.
Section 11—Initiation and conduct of investigation
Amendment 12 not moved.
Section 11 agreed to.
Section 12—Investigations: witnesses and documents
In the same item of business
The Convener (Audrey Nicoll)
SNP
Good morning, and welcome to the ninth meeting in 2025 of the Criminal Justice Committee. We have received no apologies. Item 1 is consideration of the Vict...
The Convener
SNP
We start with the group entitled “Victims and Witnesses Commissioner: title and definitions”. Amendment 94, in the name of Liam Kerr, is grouped with amendme...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con)
Con
All the amendments in the group, with the exception of the cabinet secretary’s amendment 140, proceed from the principle that I shall outline for amendment 9...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs (Angela Constance)
SNP
Good morning, convener and colleagues. I begin with my minor technical amendment 140, which adjusts the wording of the definition of “child” in section 23 of...
The Convener
SNP
As no other member wishes to come in, I call Liam Kerr to wind up and say whether he wishes to press or withdraw amendment 94.
Liam Kerr
Con
I will be brief. Thank you, cabinet secretary—that was an interesting discussion with much to consider. I entirely see the points that you make. I very much ...
The Convener
SNP
The next group is on the establishment of a victims and witnesses commissioner. Amendment 1, in the name of Russell Findlay, is grouped with amendments 2 to ...
Sharon Dowey (South Scotland) (Con)
Con
I will speak to Russell Findlay’s amendments, convener. The amendments in the name of Russell Findlay would remove the establishment of a victims commission...
Angela Constance
SNP
As the committee has heard, this raft of amendments seeks to prevent a victims and witnesses commissioner from being created. I would strongly oppose such a ...
Liam Kerr
Con
I am listening carefully to what the cabinet secretary is saying. How does she respond to the challenge posed by Children 1st in the documents that it has su...
Angela Constance
SNP
There will always be an argument to be made with regard to how we use our resources now to impact on change. I do not demur from that, but there is also the ...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab)
Lab
Good morning. I will rehearse similar arguments about creating a commissioner. My question is not whether a victims commissioner could make a difference but ...
The Convener
SNP
Cabinet secretary, do you wish to respond?
Angela Constance
SNP
Convener, I had finished my remarks and I did not appreciate that I had a right to reply, but I will take a brief moment to respond to Ms McNeill. I underst...
The Convener
SNP
Ben Macpherson wants to make a point, and I will then bring the cabinet secretary back in to respond to it.
Ben Macpherson (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
SNP
I am conscious that colleagues around the table have mentioned the SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review Committee, which I convene. Although the Parliament...
The Convener
SNP
Do you wish to respond to that, cabinet secretary?
Angela Constance
SNP
I have reminded the committee on a number of occasions that I must adhere to our manifesto commitment. I am aware that the Parliament agreed to a moratorium,...
The Convener
SNP
I call Sharon Dowey to wind up and to press or seek to withdraw amendment 1.
Sharon Dowey
Con
In her remarks, the cabinet secretary asked why we would not want a victims commissioner. If we had an endless budget, I think that we would welcome one, but...
Ben Macpherson
SNP
Victim Support Scotland and other organisations have argued strongly in favour of the creation of a victims commissioner, so a large constituency of those wh...
Sharon Dowey
Con
There are mixed views among people who currently support victims. Some of them support the creation of a commissioner, because they think that a commissioner...
The Convener
SNP
The next group is on a victims charter. Amendment 234, in the name of Jamie Greene, is grouped with amendment 236.
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
Good morning, convener, cabinet secretary and colleagues. I thank the committee and the convener for letting me attend to speak to my amendments. I put on t...
Katy Clark (West Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I am very sympathetic to the case that Jamie Greene is making, but what does he believe would be the legal status of a victims charter and why would the vict...
Jamie Greene
Con
On the latter point, the victims commissioner seems like a good place for the charter to live, because, if we are to create a commissioner’s office, it is im...
Angela Constance
SNP
I am very mindful of the discussions that I had with Mr Greene early on after my appointment to the position of Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affair...
The Convener
SNP
I call Jamie Greene to wind up and to press or seek to withdraw amendment 234.
Jamie Greene
Con
We are off to a good start—we have found some agreement on my first amendment. I hope that that has set the tone for the rest of the morning. I take on boar...
The Convener
SNP
The next group is on victims and witnesses commissioner: powers and reporting. Amendment 104, in the name of Liam Kerr, is grouped with amendments 105, 106, ...