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Committee

Criminal Justice Committee 12 March 2025 [Draft]

12 Mar 2025 · S6 · Criminal Justice Committee
Item of business
Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Good morning, convener, cabinet secretary and colleagues. I thank the committee and the convener for letting me attend to speak to my amendments.

I put on the record my thanks to the parliamentary clerks who have assisted with much of the drafting of my amendments. As members will know, it is often difficult for individual members to draft stage 2 amendments, as we do not have the assistance of a bill team behind us, so I thank the clerks for helping with some of the drafting at very short notice. That might present me with problems down the line when we come to some of them, but we have done the best that we can.

I also thank my office team, who have worked extremely hard on the amendments and the supporting documents that I have sent to committee members.

All my amendments, starting with the amendments in this group on the victims charter, have come out of my proposed member’s bill—the victims, criminal justice and fatal accident inquiries (Scotland) bill—which I first consulted on some three and a bit years ago and which was the original victims bill. That proposed bill stemmed from a manifesto commitment of my party at the previous election, but also from when I held the justice brief and sat on this committee.

Aside from two substantive elements of my proposed bill—on the not proven verdict and fatal accident inquiries—most of its elements will feature in our discussion this morning. The amendments that I have lodged have some central themes that are very relevant to my proposed victims bill, on which I consulted widely and which, I have to say, was received well by stakeholders.

I launched my proposed victims bill before the Scottish Government published what is now its victims bill. The Government’s bill was originally to be called the “Criminal Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill”, because it makes substantive changes to Scotland’s criminal justice system, but it miraculously became the Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill. I always take impersonation as the best form of flattery, convener.

It is important that the first word in the title of the Government’s bill and of my original proposal is “victims”. People who are watching this morning’s proceedings should note that, because it proves that we all come at the issue from the same place. We all want to improve outcomes for victims as we work on the amendments at stage 2. We must use this opportunity—for me, it feels like an opportunity—to work collaboratively as a Parliament to improve the legislation and put victims at the heart of any reforms that we make. This is also a chance to set right some of the wrongs of the past, some of which have been well documented and high profile and have led to devastating outcomes for victims of serious crimes, including loss of life and the ruination of others’ lives.

Amendment 234 and others have come from discussions directly with victims of crimes, victim support organisations, victims’ rights campaigners and other third sector organisations, which often carry a lot of the heavy load in assisting people who have been victims of crime. Indeed, the briefing that all committee members will have received on Monday from Victim Support Scotland supports every one of my amendments. Whether it supports them as worded or in principle is another matter, but I hope that committee members will reflect on that, should the committee vote on any of them.

The victims charter is a good place to start. Amendment 234 seeks to place a duty on the new victims and witnesses commissioner for Scotland, should the Parliament be minded to create such a role, to prepare and publish something called a victims charter within one year of section 1 of the bill coming into force. In essence, the aim of having a victims charter is to improve victims’ knowledge and understanding of the justice system, which is an issue that has been raised by many stakeholders I have met. That is notwithstanding the live conversation on the definition of “victim” or whether a commissioner should be created at all—that is not for me to decide.

When researching for the amendment, I discovered that there is already something called the victims code in existence, although I have to say that no one I have spoken to knew of it or was aware of it. That tells me that the victims code was probably published with some well-meaning intention in historical legislation but that it has not featured as a key part of the justice system or in victims’ understanding of their interactions with it.

I am not in favour of duplicating work. If the victims code exists and could be made better, that is perhaps one approach that we could take. However, if we are to create a victims commissioner, surely we should make clear their duties. I appreciate that section 1 of the bill does that, but I would like to see something in addition to that through a victims charter.

An issue that became quite fundamental to amendment 234 was that many victims expressed a lack of understanding of how the justice system works in practice and what their rights are. Many are unhappy with the form and method of the communication that they receive as they journey through what is often quite a traumatic process. We should bear in mind that victims of crime are probably already in a vulnerable position.

In my view, a simple and well-worded victims charter would be a single, comprehensive and understandable source of information that would let victims know what their rights are, how the process works and what their various points of contact will be. According to amendment 234, that could include, among other things, a description of the justice system and how victims may interact with it; victims’ rights in relation to criminal investigations and proceedings, at all stages when they may interact with the system; the processes available to a victim for upholding their rights in relation to investigations and proceedings; and, more importantly, in subsection (2)(d), the manner, frequency and methods of communication with victims to which criminal justice agencies must adhere.

In the same item of business

The Convener (Audrey Nicoll) SNP
Good morning, and welcome to the ninth meeting in 2025 of the Criminal Justice Committee. We have received no apologies. Item 1 is consideration of the Vict...
The Convener SNP
We start with the group entitled “Victims and Witnesses Commissioner: title and definitions”. Amendment 94, in the name of Liam Kerr, is grouped with amendme...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
All the amendments in the group, with the exception of the cabinet secretary’s amendment 140, proceed from the principle that I shall outline for amendment 9...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs (Angela Constance) SNP
Good morning, convener and colleagues. I begin with my minor technical amendment 140, which adjusts the wording of the definition of “child” in section 23 of...
The Convener SNP
As no other member wishes to come in, I call Liam Kerr to wind up and say whether he wishes to press or withdraw amendment 94.
Liam Kerr Con
I will be brief. Thank you, cabinet secretary—that was an interesting discussion with much to consider. I entirely see the points that you make. I very much ...
The Convener SNP
The next group is on the establishment of a victims and witnesses commissioner. Amendment 1, in the name of Russell Findlay, is grouped with amendments 2 to ...
Sharon Dowey (South Scotland) (Con) Con
I will speak to Russell Findlay’s amendments, convener. The amendments in the name of Russell Findlay would remove the establishment of a victims commission...
Angela Constance SNP
As the committee has heard, this raft of amendments seeks to prevent a victims and witnesses commissioner from being created. I would strongly oppose such a ...
Liam Kerr Con
I am listening carefully to what the cabinet secretary is saying. How does she respond to the challenge posed by Children 1st in the documents that it has su...
Angela Constance SNP
There will always be an argument to be made with regard to how we use our resources now to impact on change. I do not demur from that, but there is also the ...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Good morning. I will rehearse similar arguments about creating a commissioner. My question is not whether a victims commissioner could make a difference but ...
The Convener SNP
Cabinet secretary, do you wish to respond?
Angela Constance SNP
Convener, I had finished my remarks and I did not appreciate that I had a right to reply, but I will take a brief moment to respond to Ms McNeill. I underst...
The Convener SNP
Ben Macpherson wants to make a point, and I will then bring the cabinet secretary back in to respond to it.
Ben Macpherson (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) SNP
I am conscious that colleagues around the table have mentioned the SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review Committee, which I convene. Although the Parliament...
The Convener SNP
Do you wish to respond to that, cabinet secretary?
Angela Constance SNP
I have reminded the committee on a number of occasions that I must adhere to our manifesto commitment. I am aware that the Parliament agreed to a moratorium,...
The Convener SNP
I call Sharon Dowey to wind up and to press or seek to withdraw amendment 1.
Sharon Dowey Con
In her remarks, the cabinet secretary asked why we would not want a victims commissioner. If we had an endless budget, I think that we would welcome one, but...
Ben Macpherson SNP
Victim Support Scotland and other organisations have argued strongly in favour of the creation of a victims commissioner, so a large constituency of those wh...
Sharon Dowey Con
There are mixed views among people who currently support victims. Some of them support the creation of a commissioner, because they think that a commissioner...
The Convener SNP
The next group is on a victims charter. Amendment 234, in the name of Jamie Greene, is grouped with amendment 236.
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con) Con
Good morning, convener, cabinet secretary and colleagues. I thank the committee and the convener for letting me attend to speak to my amendments. I put on t...
Katy Clark (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I am very sympathetic to the case that Jamie Greene is making, but what does he believe would be the legal status of a victims charter and why would the vict...
Jamie Greene Con
On the latter point, the victims commissioner seems like a good place for the charter to live, because, if we are to create a commissioner’s office, it is im...
Angela Constance SNP
I am very mindful of the discussions that I had with Mr Greene early on after my appointment to the position of Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affair...
The Convener SNP
I call Jamie Greene to wind up and to press or seek to withdraw amendment 234.
Jamie Greene Con
We are off to a good start—we have found some agreement on my first amendment. I hope that that has set the tone for the rest of the morning. I take on boar...
The Convener SNP
The next group is on victims and witnesses commissioner: powers and reporting. Amendment 104, in the name of Liam Kerr, is grouped with amendments 105, 106, ...