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Committee

Criminal Justice Committee 12 March 2025 [Draft]

12 Mar 2025 · S6 · Criminal Justice Committee
Item of business
Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Good morning, convener and colleagues. I begin with my minor technical amendment 140, which adjusts the wording of the definition of “child” in section 23 of the bill so that references to age are internally consistent in the bill.

I will now address the rest of the amendments in the group, which were lodged by Mr Kerr. I understand that the intention of the amendments is to establish the different legal meanings of the terms “victim” and “complainer” and to add “complainers” to the title of the victims and witnesses commissioner. I will respectfully outline my concerns about Mr Kerr’s amendments and why, for a number of reasons, I am not able to support them.

Most importantly, the commissioner is to be a champion for all victims and survivors of crime. Many people who are victims of a crime might not report it or pursue it beyond an initial report. One of the main drivers of the bill is to improve the experiences of all victims and survivors to ensure that they come forward, seek justice and are supported to do so. Although I do not think that it is Mr Kerr’s intention, there is a danger that his amendments would send a message that the commissioner distinguishes between victims. That is unhelpful and goes against the aims of the victims and witnesses commissioner and of the bill.

Of course, I recognise the legitimacy of the term “complainer”. Indeed, the bill uses it where legally required—for example, in section 64 in relation to independent legal representation. In fact, members will note that the terms “victim” and “complainer” are used in different parts of the bill. Those words are used deliberately and intentionally to befit the legal status of the individual being referred to.

I disagree with any notion that a victim is not a victim unless a person has been tried in a court of law. I also resist any suggestion that using the term “victim” is prejudicial and assumes guilt. I know that Mr Kerr did not do that in his remarks, but the term “victim” attaches to the individual who has been harmed, rather than implying anything about who has caused the harm.

Victim Support Scotland has told us that the term “complainer” is particularly problematic for a large number of victims and survivors. It makes them feel that they are seen as complaining in the ordinary sense of the term, rather than having a legitimate right to seek justice. It makes them feel as though their experience is being trivialised as a complaint, rather than seen as a life-changing event. Therefore, it is important for us to acknowledge that victims do not need to have gone through a formal legal process to have been harmed, to be victims and to know that the commissioner has regard to them.

I urge the committee to oppose Mr Kerr’s amendments and agree with me that there should be no change in the name of the commissioner.

That said, I already plan to lodge an amendment at stage 3 in relation to the current definition of “victim” in the bill, taking account of the Government amendments on the victim notification scheme. I would therefore like to end on a conciliatory note and offer to discuss the definition with Mr Kerr ahead of stage 3. Having listened to Mr Kerr’s commentary this morning, I think that we actually have the same aims on these matters.

In the same item of business

The Convener (Audrey Nicoll) SNP
Good morning, and welcome to the ninth meeting in 2025 of the Criminal Justice Committee. We have received no apologies. Item 1 is consideration of the Vict...
The Convener SNP
We start with the group entitled “Victims and Witnesses Commissioner: title and definitions”. Amendment 94, in the name of Liam Kerr, is grouped with amendme...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
All the amendments in the group, with the exception of the cabinet secretary’s amendment 140, proceed from the principle that I shall outline for amendment 9...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs (Angela Constance) SNP
Good morning, convener and colleagues. I begin with my minor technical amendment 140, which adjusts the wording of the definition of “child” in section 23 of...
The Convener SNP
As no other member wishes to come in, I call Liam Kerr to wind up and say whether he wishes to press or withdraw amendment 94.
Liam Kerr Con
I will be brief. Thank you, cabinet secretary—that was an interesting discussion with much to consider. I entirely see the points that you make. I very much ...
The Convener SNP
The next group is on the establishment of a victims and witnesses commissioner. Amendment 1, in the name of Russell Findlay, is grouped with amendments 2 to ...
Sharon Dowey (South Scotland) (Con) Con
I will speak to Russell Findlay’s amendments, convener. The amendments in the name of Russell Findlay would remove the establishment of a victims commission...
Angela Constance SNP
As the committee has heard, this raft of amendments seeks to prevent a victims and witnesses commissioner from being created. I would strongly oppose such a ...
Liam Kerr Con
I am listening carefully to what the cabinet secretary is saying. How does she respond to the challenge posed by Children 1st in the documents that it has su...
Angela Constance SNP
There will always be an argument to be made with regard to how we use our resources now to impact on change. I do not demur from that, but there is also the ...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Good morning. I will rehearse similar arguments about creating a commissioner. My question is not whether a victims commissioner could make a difference but ...
The Convener SNP
Cabinet secretary, do you wish to respond?
Angela Constance SNP
Convener, I had finished my remarks and I did not appreciate that I had a right to reply, but I will take a brief moment to respond to Ms McNeill. I underst...
The Convener SNP
Ben Macpherson wants to make a point, and I will then bring the cabinet secretary back in to respond to it.
Ben Macpherson (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) SNP
I am conscious that colleagues around the table have mentioned the SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review Committee, which I convene. Although the Parliament...
The Convener SNP
Do you wish to respond to that, cabinet secretary?
Angela Constance SNP
I have reminded the committee on a number of occasions that I must adhere to our manifesto commitment. I am aware that the Parliament agreed to a moratorium,...
The Convener SNP
I call Sharon Dowey to wind up and to press or seek to withdraw amendment 1.
Sharon Dowey Con
In her remarks, the cabinet secretary asked why we would not want a victims commissioner. If we had an endless budget, I think that we would welcome one, but...
Ben Macpherson SNP
Victim Support Scotland and other organisations have argued strongly in favour of the creation of a victims commissioner, so a large constituency of those wh...
Sharon Dowey Con
There are mixed views among people who currently support victims. Some of them support the creation of a commissioner, because they think that a commissioner...
The Convener SNP
The next group is on a victims charter. Amendment 234, in the name of Jamie Greene, is grouped with amendment 236.
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con) Con
Good morning, convener, cabinet secretary and colleagues. I thank the committee and the convener for letting me attend to speak to my amendments. I put on t...
Katy Clark (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I am very sympathetic to the case that Jamie Greene is making, but what does he believe would be the legal status of a victims charter and why would the vict...
Jamie Greene Con
On the latter point, the victims commissioner seems like a good place for the charter to live, because, if we are to create a commissioner’s office, it is im...
Angela Constance SNP
I am very mindful of the discussions that I had with Mr Greene early on after my appointment to the position of Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affair...
The Convener SNP
I call Jamie Greene to wind up and to press or seek to withdraw amendment 234.
Jamie Greene Con
We are off to a good start—we have found some agreement on my first amendment. I hope that that has set the tone for the rest of the morning. I take on boar...
The Convener SNP
The next group is on victims and witnesses commissioner: powers and reporting. Amendment 104, in the name of Liam Kerr, is grouped with amendments 105, 106, ...