Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 20 February 2025
20 Feb 2025 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Independent Review of Sentencing and Penal Policy
Since this parliamentary session began, the challenges that the justice system faces have featured prominently in chamber business. Justice touches absolutely everyone. Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.
Back in 2022, the new strategy, “Vision for Justice in Scotland: three year delivery plan”, set out the timely and welcome approach that was being taken across Scotland to grasp the nettle of reforming our justice system so that it meets the needs of a modern and contemporary Scotland. Scotland’s prison population remains among the highest, per capita, in western Europe, and front and centre of virtually every debate on the subject in this parliamentary session has been the need to reduce that population.
We understand the factors behind the stubborn upward trend. Many members have referenced the complexities of the prison population, longer sentences and the unrelenting legacy of Covid. Those factors are not unique to Scotland, but meaningful and sustained change has been difficult to achieve.
Although I support modernisation of our prison estate, I strongly disagree that creating more prison space as part of the solution to the current prison population challenge fits remotely with a contemporary justice system.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing)
SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-16532, in the name of Angela Constance, on an independent review of sentencing and penal policy. 15:12
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs (Angela Constance)
SNP
Since October 2023, I have updated Parliament on a number of occasions about the rising prison population, the challenges that that brings and what the Gover...
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
I am sorry to pre-empt what may come next, but there already is a presumption against short sentences in Scotland. The cabinet secretary is dancing on the he...
Angela Constance
SNP
There is indeed a presumption against short-term sentencing in Scotland. This Government took that very decisive action. I know that that has had success, in...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con)
Con
The Scottish Conservatives have been demanding a review of sentencing and penal policy for years. I am pleased to hear that progress has finally been made an...
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
SNP
Does the member recognise that England and Wales are going through exactly the same situation and have encountered exactly the same problem as we have, and a...
Liam Kerr
Con
My starting point is always to consider bespoke Scottish solutions to Scottish challenges. It is very important that, where we have a fully devolved matter a...
Angela Constance
SNP
I appreciate very much that Mr Kerr wishes to campaign for changes in the victim notification scheme. I will certainly be with him on at least part of that j...
Liam Kerr
Con
That is a fair challenge. What we would have done is build capacity such that the new HMP Barlinnie would not be 10 times over budget—it costs nearly £1 bill...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
SNP
I remind members who wish to speak in the debate to check that they have pressed their request-to-speak buttons. I call Pauline McNeill to speak to and move ...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab)
Lab
Our prisons are bursting at the seams and we are being forced to release prisoners early, causing deep public concern. We have some of the highest levels of ...
Liam Kerr
Con
Does it concern Pauline McNeill that there is no specific budget line in next year’s budget for throughcare?
Pauline McNeill
Lab
It dumbfounds me at times. I have been taking part in debates on this issue for two decades now—indeed I have—and we know that the answers lie in throughcare...
Angela Constance
SNP
I wonder whether Ms McNeill welcomes the fact that the new throughcare contract has been agreed and will be in force for the next financial year, with increa...
Pauline McNeill
Lab
I absolutely do welcome it, but the two points are not mutually exclusive. I would like it to be visible, but of course I welcome the commitment. What I have...
Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green)
Green
I welcome the information that the cabinet secretary has shared with us about the commission that will be chaired by Martyn Evans. I look forward to receivin...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD)
LD
I, too, welcome the debate and the independent sentencing review. I know that it is dangerous to prejudge such things, but I confidently expect such a review...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
SNP
We move to the open debate. I advise members that back-bench speeches should be of the agreed slot of up to four minutes and that we have no time in hand. An...
Fulton MacGregor (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
SNP
Today’s debate examines the difficult issue of prison populations, the justice system and ensuring that the Scottish public are kept safe from harm. If we lo...
Liam Kerr
Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Fulton MacGregor
SNP
I have four minutes, and we have been asked to co-operate. I am sorry, Mr Kerr. I am fully aware that the funding increases are being made at the same time ...
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
It was not long ago that we debated the Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill. The Scottish Conservatives argued that the bill would do very little t...
Angela Constance
SNP
Will the member give way?
Jamie Greene
Con
I do not have time. I have great respect for many of the individuals who have been named on the new review panel, but I fear—I hope that it is just that—tha...
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
SNP
Per capita, Scotland has one of the highest prison populations in western Europe. We are simply locking up too many people, and that cannot continue. I welco...
Audrey Nicoll (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
SNP
Since this parliamentary session began, the challenges that the justice system faces have featured prominently in chamber business. Justice touches absolutel...
Liam Kerr
Con
Will the member give way?
Audrey Nicoll
SNP
I will not, if Liam Kerr does not mind, as I am short of time. In response, Scotland has undertaken a range of proactive steps, including a broadening out o...
Ben Macpherson (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
SNP
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in the debate on this important subject, and I welcome the establishment of the independent review. I agree with ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
SNP
We move to closing speeches. Maggie Chapman will close on behalf of the Scottish Greens. 16:10