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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 20 February 2025

20 Feb 2025 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Independent Review of Sentencing and Penal Policy

It was not long ago that we debated the Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill. The Scottish Conservatives argued that the bill would do very little to reduce the prison population. The Government argued very much to the contrary, saying that our burgeoning prison population was the very reason why we had to think about remand and release. It argued that extraordinary times called for extreme measures. We were told that, although such measures would be unpopular with the public, we would just have to suck it up, because otherwise there might be mass unrest and disorder in our prisons. It was the same again last year—we were asked twice to release prisoners early due to overcrowding and, again, the Government asked us to consider automatic early release after just 40 per cent of a sentence had been served.

All that is against the backdrop of a system in Scotland in which there is already a presumption against short sentences of less than two years. There has already been a considerable rise in the number of non-custodial alternatives being handed out by judges. There has been a considerable rise—20 per cent—in the electronic tagging of offenders, and there have been sweeping changes to the sentencing criteria for under-25s.

The Government assured us that all that would reduce our prison population, but quite the opposite has happened. In 2022, the prison population was just over 7,400. Last year, it was 7,850 on average, and it hit 8,300 just last week.

We were hoodwinked into thinking that the ruse of allowing automatic and emergency early release would somehow make for safer prisons—forgetting that it might not make for safer streets, which should surely underpin any sentencing policy.

I suspect that the Government is not willing to say what it thinks, which is that judges are sending too many people to prison. The cabinet secretary will not say on the record which crimes for which people are currently sent to prison would not be under potential review in future. I do not have a problem with review of the penal system—or, indeed, sentencing—but the public expect honesty from the Government and the Parliament on their understanding of what would happen as a result.

Many times, I have stood in the chamber and recounted my thoughts about why our prisons are full. As Pauline McNeill said, the answers have been obvious and staring us in the face for two decades. Our remand population currently sits at nearly 2,000 prisoners, which is a quarter of the prison population. If we were to speed up processing the backlog of court cases, many of those people could perhaps come out of prison. We could reduce prisoner numbers overnight if there were no remand population. That surely would address overcrowding. At the moment, those involved in 23,000 cases in the system are still waiting to have their day in court. Some of those prisoners have been waiting for up to three years to have their cases dealt with. Such delays affect victims as well as accused persons.

We have seen a huge surge in the backlog of cases of serious crimes, including those involving historical sexual crimes, serious organised criminal activity and, of course, convictions as a result of new legislation that we have passed. Here is the thing: the Government cannot, on one hand, laud itself for clearing the backlog of court cases and, on the other, lament the fact that the by-product is that more people are going to prison. The cabinet secretary cannot have it both ways.

What of the review that is the subject of the motion?

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-16532, in the name of Angela Constance, on an independent review of sentencing and penal policy. 15:12
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs (Angela Constance) SNP
Since October 2023, I have updated Parliament on a number of occasions about the rising prison population, the challenges that that brings and what the Gover...
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I am sorry to pre-empt what may come next, but there already is a presumption against short sentences in Scotland. The cabinet secretary is dancing on the he...
Angela Constance SNP
There is indeed a presumption against short-term sentencing in Scotland. This Government took that very decisive action. I know that that has had success, in...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
The Scottish Conservatives have been demanding a review of sentencing and penal policy for years. I am pleased to hear that progress has finally been made an...
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
Does the member recognise that England and Wales are going through exactly the same situation and have encountered exactly the same problem as we have, and a...
Liam Kerr Con
My starting point is always to consider bespoke Scottish solutions to Scottish challenges. It is very important that, where we have a fully devolved matter a...
Angela Constance SNP
I appreciate very much that Mr Kerr wishes to campaign for changes in the victim notification scheme. I will certainly be with him on at least part of that j...
Liam Kerr Con
That is a fair challenge. What we would have done is build capacity such that the new HMP Barlinnie would not be 10 times over budget—it costs nearly £1 bill...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I remind members who wish to speak in the debate to check that they have pressed their request-to-speak buttons. I call Pauline McNeill to speak to and move ...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Our prisons are bursting at the seams and we are being forced to release prisoners early, causing deep public concern. We have some of the highest levels of ...
Liam Kerr Con
Does it concern Pauline McNeill that there is no specific budget line in next year’s budget for throughcare?
Pauline McNeill Lab
It dumbfounds me at times. I have been taking part in debates on this issue for two decades now—indeed I have—and we know that the answers lie in throughcare...
Angela Constance SNP
I wonder whether Ms McNeill welcomes the fact that the new throughcare contract has been agreed and will be in force for the next financial year, with increa...
Pauline McNeill Lab
I absolutely do welcome it, but the two points are not mutually exclusive. I would like it to be visible, but of course I welcome the commitment. What I have...
Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green) Green
I welcome the information that the cabinet secretary has shared with us about the commission that will be chaired by Martyn Evans. I look forward to receivin...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
I, too, welcome the debate and the independent sentencing review. I know that it is dangerous to prejudge such things, but I confidently expect such a review...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We move to the open debate. I advise members that back-bench speeches should be of the agreed slot of up to four minutes and that we have no time in hand. An...
Fulton MacGregor (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) SNP
Today’s debate examines the difficult issue of prison populations, the justice system and ensuring that the Scottish public are kept safe from harm. If we lo...
Liam Kerr Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Fulton MacGregor SNP
I have four minutes, and we have been asked to co-operate. I am sorry, Mr Kerr. I am fully aware that the funding increases are being made at the same time ...
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con) Con
It was not long ago that we debated the Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill. The Scottish Conservatives argued that the bill would do very little t...
Angela Constance SNP
Will the member give way?
Jamie Greene Con
I do not have time. I have great respect for many of the individuals who have been named on the new review panel, but I fear—I hope that it is just that—tha...
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
Per capita, Scotland has one of the highest prison populations in western Europe. We are simply locking up too many people, and that cannot continue. I welco...
Audrey Nicoll (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) SNP
Since this parliamentary session began, the challenges that the justice system faces have featured prominently in chamber business. Justice touches absolutel...
Liam Kerr Con
Will the member give way?
Audrey Nicoll SNP
I will not, if Liam Kerr does not mind, as I am short of time. In response, Scotland has undertaken a range of proactive steps, including a broadening out o...
Ben Macpherson (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) SNP
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in the debate on this important subject, and I welcome the establishment of the independent review. I agree with ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We move to closing speeches. Maggie Chapman will close on behalf of the Scottish Greens. 16:10