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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 20 February 2025

20 Feb 2025 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Independent Review of Sentencing and Penal Policy
Chapman, Maggie Green North East Scotland Watch on SPTV

I welcome the information that the cabinet secretary has shared with us about the commission that will be chaired by Martyn Evans. I look forward to receiving regular updates on the work of that body.

Research published in the medical journal The Lancet this month puts this debate into context. More than 11.5 million people across the world are incarcerated, and that number is rising; indeed, it increased by around a third of a million from 2023 to 2024 alone. At least one in seven of those people has a severe mental illness, and very many are in poor physical health.

Behind those figures lie two stark realities. The first is that whether or not someone is incarcerated depends not so much on the harm that they have caused but on who they are, what their childhood was like, where they live and what illnesses they live with. Between a half and three quarters of people charged in court have mental illness, compared to around one fifth of the general population.

The second reality is that, for most people, prison makes their mental health worse. Prison is not a safe place, and it does not make the world outside prison safer either—not for survivors of violence, not for wider communities and not for people who have been incarcerated, who are at serious risk of avoidable death in their very first week after release.

The motion highlights that Scotland is part of the problem, but it also reflects the fact that most of us want to be part of the answer, too. Against a backdrop of brutality from Washington—and, tragically, from Westminster—Scotland wants to be different, and we in the Scottish Greens are ready to work to make that difference happen.

That means having a radical ethics of care and compassion. It means recognising that genuine security is about wellbeing rather than control. It means giving restorative and community justice a chance to work and giving survivors well-founded confidence that, when properly implemented, non-custodial sentences will keep them safe. It means giving individual attention to people who need support, whether it be in primary prevention, in the community or in prison. It means managing cases swiftly and efficiently, making the necessary connections between civil and criminal cases. It means legal aid that works for all those who need it, including in relation to child contact.

It also means recognising and rewarding the difficult and vital work done by all those in the justice sector, including the third sector, with its invaluable expertise; the forensic specialists at the University of Dundee’s Leverhulme research centre, which, shockingly, senior management plans to close; our increasingly overstretched prison officers; and the staff, whose pressures have been described so vividly in the Public and Commercial Services Union’s recent “Rough Justice” report.

I do not underestimate how difficult any of that will be. However, that is why the independent review is needed: to find out exactly what is happening, why so many people are still being sent to prison, what needs to change and how that can happen. It needs more than that, though. It needs resources—of funding, of course, but also of political and public will.

As we know, poverty and adverse childhood experiences make people vulnerable to involvement in crime—as victims, as survivors and as those convicted—yet we still see traumatised children being described in utterly dehumanising language by irresponsible media and political figures. I hope that this debate will be free from that kind of contempt. I hope that we can find consensus on positive ways of making Scotland a safer, more just and more compassionate place, and I look forward to hearing, and talking later, about some of the transformational pieces of work that are already happening, that need support and which must continue.

15:44  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-16532, in the name of Angela Constance, on an independent review of sentencing and penal policy. 15:12
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs (Angela Constance) SNP
Since October 2023, I have updated Parliament on a number of occasions about the rising prison population, the challenges that that brings and what the Gover...
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I am sorry to pre-empt what may come next, but there already is a presumption against short sentences in Scotland. The cabinet secretary is dancing on the he...
Angela Constance SNP
There is indeed a presumption against short-term sentencing in Scotland. This Government took that very decisive action. I know that that has had success, in...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
The Scottish Conservatives have been demanding a review of sentencing and penal policy for years. I am pleased to hear that progress has finally been made an...
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
Does the member recognise that England and Wales are going through exactly the same situation and have encountered exactly the same problem as we have, and a...
Liam Kerr Con
My starting point is always to consider bespoke Scottish solutions to Scottish challenges. It is very important that, where we have a fully devolved matter a...
Angela Constance SNP
I appreciate very much that Mr Kerr wishes to campaign for changes in the victim notification scheme. I will certainly be with him on at least part of that j...
Liam Kerr Con
That is a fair challenge. What we would have done is build capacity such that the new HMP Barlinnie would not be 10 times over budget—it costs nearly £1 bill...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I remind members who wish to speak in the debate to check that they have pressed their request-to-speak buttons. I call Pauline McNeill to speak to and move ...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Our prisons are bursting at the seams and we are being forced to release prisoners early, causing deep public concern. We have some of the highest levels of ...
Liam Kerr Con
Does it concern Pauline McNeill that there is no specific budget line in next year’s budget for throughcare?
Pauline McNeill Lab
It dumbfounds me at times. I have been taking part in debates on this issue for two decades now—indeed I have—and we know that the answers lie in throughcare...
Angela Constance SNP
I wonder whether Ms McNeill welcomes the fact that the new throughcare contract has been agreed and will be in force for the next financial year, with increa...
Pauline McNeill Lab
I absolutely do welcome it, but the two points are not mutually exclusive. I would like it to be visible, but of course I welcome the commitment. What I have...
Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green) Green
I welcome the information that the cabinet secretary has shared with us about the commission that will be chaired by Martyn Evans. I look forward to receivin...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
I, too, welcome the debate and the independent sentencing review. I know that it is dangerous to prejudge such things, but I confidently expect such a review...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We move to the open debate. I advise members that back-bench speeches should be of the agreed slot of up to four minutes and that we have no time in hand. An...
Fulton MacGregor (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) SNP
Today’s debate examines the difficult issue of prison populations, the justice system and ensuring that the Scottish public are kept safe from harm. If we lo...
Liam Kerr Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Fulton MacGregor SNP
I have four minutes, and we have been asked to co-operate. I am sorry, Mr Kerr. I am fully aware that the funding increases are being made at the same time ...
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con) Con
It was not long ago that we debated the Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill. The Scottish Conservatives argued that the bill would do very little t...
Angela Constance SNP
Will the member give way?
Jamie Greene Con
I do not have time. I have great respect for many of the individuals who have been named on the new review panel, but I fear—I hope that it is just that—tha...
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
Per capita, Scotland has one of the highest prison populations in western Europe. We are simply locking up too many people, and that cannot continue. I welco...
Audrey Nicoll (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) SNP
Since this parliamentary session began, the challenges that the justice system faces have featured prominently in chamber business. Justice touches absolutel...
Liam Kerr Con
Will the member give way?
Audrey Nicoll SNP
I will not, if Liam Kerr does not mind, as I am short of time. In response, Scotland has undertaken a range of proactive steps, including a broadening out o...
Ben Macpherson (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) SNP
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in the debate on this important subject, and I welcome the establishment of the independent review. I agree with ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We move to closing speeches. Maggie Chapman will close on behalf of the Scottish Greens. 16:10