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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 18 February 2025

18 Feb 2025 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Employer National Insurance Contributions
Johnson, Daniel Lab Edinburgh Southern Watch on SPTV

The manifesto said, “taxes on working people”. The reality of the fiscal context was that there were difficult decisions to be made. This is not a magic bullet for public sector reform but, with one in six Scots on NHS waiting lists and with attainment falling in schools, we need additional public funds—although I also argue that we need reform and that we must modernise delivery of public services.

I am not going to stand here and say that the decisions were easy, because they were difficult. The choices that the Labour Government had to make to fix the foundations of the economy were not cost free. As someone who was an employer before coming to Parliament, I understand the difficulty that the measure will cause for employers who have to make payroll payments every month. I understand that, but the measure was necessary.

I also note that, although larger employers are being asked to contribute more, those who employ five people or fewer will benefit because the increased thresholds will remove altogether 57,000 SMEs from making national insurance contributions.

It is also important to note the international context. The rate of employer contributions puts us absolutely in the middle among countries in the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. In Germany, employer contributions are 50 per cent higher than they are in this country and those in France are double what ours are.

The decision was not easy and was not one that the UK Labour Government wanted to make, but it was necessary—which brings me to the question about what SNP members are proposing as an alternative, because that is not clear. They reject the fiscal measure of increasing employer national insurance payments, but they also voted against the windfall tax and against changes to the loophole for people with non-domiciled status.

What would the SNP do differently? What fiscal measures would it take? This may be where we need to exchange stern looks. What would the SNP do? Would it increase personal income tax? That is not something that I would advise at this time, when people are struggling to make ends meet and to pay their monthly utility bills. Would SNP members increase employee national insurance contributions? That would have exactly the same effect. Would they put up VAT, which is the most regressive form of tax and the one that hits the poorest people hardest?

We have heard no alternatives from the SNP. The only contribution has been from the First Minister, who suggested that the UK Government should raise UK income tax to match levels in Scotland. It seems that the First Minister, who helped to negotiate the fiscal framework, has forgotten how it works. According to the Fraser of Allander Institute, that would reduce the amount of money that would be available to the Scottish Government by £636 million.

The SNP is not only calling for changes to national insurance contributions. In addition, SNP ministers and members have proposed almost £70 billion of additional public expenditure in the lead up to the budget without having a single idea about how to pay for that. There is no spending decision that the SNP is not in favour of, but it is without a single proposal about how it would pay for them. At the general election, the SNP called for an increase in borrowing to pay for additional public expenditure, but without any credible plan for how to deliver that.

There is a parallel with that—Trussonomics. Unplanned borrowing leads to financial chaos and to the instability that members on the Government benches are all too keen to criticise the Conservatives for.

Frankly, SNP members need to inject a little bit more honesty into their arguments. When it comes to passing their budget, they often charge members on the Opposition benches who have come forward with proposals for additional expenditure with saying how they would pay for it. Where would the money come from? What else would they cut? Those are the questions that I pose to them. If they do not want to increase employer national insurance contributions, what would they cut? They do not want to increase tax and, I presume, they do not want to increase borrowing. Are they saying that we should reject the £5.2 billion from the block grant that the measure delivers?

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-16488, in the name of Tom Arthur, on employer national insurance contributions. 15:47
The Minister for Employment and Investment (Tom Arthur) SNP
While debates in the chamber often reflect differing viewpoints, one fact remains undeniable: the United Kingdom Government’s planned changes to employer nat...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
Given that the minister raised the point about options, if it is not going to be employer national insurance contributions that are raised, what is it to be?...
Tom Arthur SNP
I appreciate that the halcyon days of 4 July might seem rather distant to the Scottish Labour Party now, given where it is standing in the polls. Let me refr...
Daniel Johnson Lab
Those are the choices.
Tom Arthur SNP
That is the platform it stood on. We were told that Scottish Labour MPs would be at the heart of a UK Labour Government and that there would be no increases ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Minister, please resume your seat for a second. It is always important for the tenor of a debate to set out from the beginning that we do not need sedentary ...
Daniel Johnson Lab
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I apologise for making sedentary interventions, but I point out that pointing at members in a slightly confrontationa...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I was not actually pointing—
Daniel Johnson Lab
I was not talking about you.
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Oh, not my pointing—somebody else’s pointing. Well, each of us is required to treat others with courtesy and respect. Having said all that, I think that we c...
Tom Arthur SNP
I will try to restrain myself to a stern look. As I was saying, the consequences of the policy for the economy are stark. It will create risk, jeopardise jo...
Alexander Burnett (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Con
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I apologise for interrupting the debate but I seek to move a motion without notice under rule 17.2 of standing orders...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I thank Mr Burnett for his contribution. I am not minded to agree to a motion without notice at this point in the afternoon to vary the standing orders on ...
Craig Hoy (South Scotland) (Con) Con
It is refreshing to follow a Scottish National Party minister who is railing against a tax rise. It is just a pity that SNP members do not rail against their...
The Minister for Public Finance (Ivan McKee) SNP
The Government has managed to balance its budget every single year and will continue to do so in the future. Our ability to pay for a larger public sector is...
Craig Hoy Con
I will make two points to the minister. One is that that is to be welcomed, although productivity is not rising off the back of it. However, we also found ou...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
You will have to bring your remarks to a close.
Craig Hoy Con
This year, councils are having to contemplate increases that are way above inflation because of ring fencing and the policies of Ivan McKee’s Government. Un...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
If we listen to Craig Hoy, it is as though the previous 14 years did not happen. Therefore, I will start where, I hope, there is some agreement with members ...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I remind Mr Johnson what the UK Labour Government’s manifesto said in 2024. It said that a UK Labour Government “will not increase taxes on working people” ...
Daniel Johnson Lab
The manifesto said, “taxes on working people”. The reality of the fiscal context was that there were difficult decisions to be made. This is not a magic bull...
Michelle Thomson (Falkirk East) (SNP) SNP
Made a request to intervene.
Daniel Johnson Lab
I am in my final minute.
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
The member is about to conclude.
Daniel Johnson Lab
In my view, honesty is a primary responsibility of the Government. This Government needs to be honest about what it is proposing, but I do not believe that i...
Lorna Slater (Lothian) (Green) Green
The legacy of 14 years of a Conservative Government at Westminster that believed that it was possible to cut its way to economic success is an increase in ch...
Craig Hoy Con
As Lorna Slater rails against the rich, does she not realise that they are the most portable taxpayers and those who can relocate the easiest?
Lorna Slater Green
That is why the Scottish Greens advocate a land value tax as an effective way of taxing wealth that cannot be packed up and moved to another country. The Un...
Daniel Johnson Lab
I hear what the member is saying. I presume that she is arguing for a wealth tax, but does she not recognise that there is an in-year financial problem that ...