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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 15 January 2025

15 Jan 2025 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill
Kerr, Liam Con North East Scotland Watch on SPTV

That is a very important point, which goes towards what the bill will achieve. As I set out at the start, there are areas in which I think that the bill is far from ideal. Just this morning at the Criminal Justice Committee, the PIRC candidly admitted that it is unclear at this stage what the extent of the extra workload that it will be required to do will be. It acknowledged that it is running at full capacity already. Although it will, of course, do its best to meet all the objectives that are put on it, it will require adequate resource. At this stage, it is not in a position to say what additional costs the bill would impose. That is in a situation in which the PIRC has already said in its annual report that it is having to request additional funding for staff costs and temporary funding for legal fees.

Its uncertainty is understandable, given that, as Katy Clark highlighted, the financial memorandum’s projections for the bill from last summer were at least £4 million lower than was necessary in order to meet the obligations as they existed at the time. The Government admitted at the Finance and Public Administration Committee that it had failed to take account of inflation and pay rises, and that it was using scenarios and figures that related to September 2022—yet the bill was being discussed in 2024. Of course, we have a new financial memorandum that was published in November last year, which the Government will say is authoritative. However, a whole raft of new features and requirements have been added to the bill, such as vetting and other items that will be developed as a result of the bill. My general position of having little, if any, confidence in the Government’s financial projections has not changed.

Finally, like Pauline McNeill, I am deeply uncomfortable that something that is as important as vetting was introduced at stage 2, which means that it has not been subject to the usual call for views or consultation process. There is a wider point about how we legislate in the Parliament, which is for another day.

The fact is that we have heard in the past couple of days significant concerns from the SPF about those changes to the vetting process, as Jamie Greene flagged earlier. Those concerns worry me because, from listening to the amendment debates and reading the SPF’s concerns, I think that it seems more than possible that there is something to them.

As MSPs, we have done our best to amend the provisions, but will the amendments address the concerns? Will they head off the unintended consequences? It is difficult to say, because the provisions were introduced only at stage 2 and lack detail. Perhaps the cabinet secretary can in closing set out her response to the federation’s concerns and, I hope, allay them, because that is the issue.

Given all the good things that the bill will bring in, I will vote for it at decision time. However, as with so many bills emanating from the Scottish Government, it is far from perfect. I hope that the cabinet secretary will make the case that it is good enough for now.

17:30  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
As members will be aware, the Presiding Officer is required under standing orders to decide whether, in her view, any provision of the bill relates to a prot...
The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone) NPA
We move to the debate on motion S6M-16093, in the name of Angela Constance, on the Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill. I would be grateful...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs (Angela Constance) SNP
I am pleased to open the debate on the Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill. I express my thanks to the committees that took part in conside...
Sharon Dowey (South Scotland) (Con) Con
The Scottish Conservatives will vote for the bill today, believing that it will improve the complaints process for members of the public and for police offic...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Scottish Labour believes that we must act to ensure the highest standards in our police force. The power held by police officers and police organisations req...
Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green) Green
I am pleased to open the stage 3 debate on behalf of the Scottish Greens and to support the Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill. I thank ev...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
I add my thanks to the committee and those who gave evidence. I also thank Lady Elish for laying the foundations for the important and necessary reforms that...
The Presiding Officer NPA
We move to the open debate. 17:07
Audrey Nicoll (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) SNP
Although I am not speaking this afternoon in my capacity as convener of the Criminal Justice Committee, I put on the record my thanks to my committee colleag...
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con) Con
When I spoke in the stage 1 debate on the bill, I reiterated the point, which has been made today, that we police by consent in Scotland. We ought to cherish...
The Presiding Officer NPA
We move to winding-up speeches. 17:17
Maggie Chapman Green
In my opening speech, I spoke about some of the worst things that bad policing can lead to—about people lost to violent and early deaths and about families w...
The Presiding Officer NPA
Members will wish to know that we have a little time in hand. 17:21
Katy Clark (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I am pleased to close the debate on behalf of Scottish Labour. We will support the bill today, although we have had significant concerns about it during the ...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
I have listened carefully to the stage 3 debate, having not been directly involved in the bill until shortly before the stage 3 consideration commenced. Sinc...
Douglas Ross (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
During the consideration of amendments, I cited a constituency case of someone who made a complaint against the police 16 months ago but was told yesterday t...
Liam Kerr Con
That is a very important point, which goes towards what the bill will achieve. As I set out at the start, there are areas in which I think that the bill is f...
Angela Constance SNP
I thank all members for their contributions and for the spirit of constructive co-operation that has, by and large, been evident throughout the journey of th...
The Presiding Officer NPA
Cabinet secretary, could you pause for a second? I am aware of several conversations taking place across the chamber, and I would be grateful if we focused o...
Angela Constance SNP
I reiterate my thanks to the bill team and to officials from Government departments and policing bodies across the four home nations who have engaged with my...