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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 07 January 2025

07 Jan 2025 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Child Poverty

The Scottish Government’s motion describes child poverty as its “single greatest priority” and as a “national mission”. All political parties agree that it should be such a mission, but it is completely legitimate to debate, as do the amendments, whether the Government’s actions match the rhetoric, and every political party has a choice in how we take part in that debate. Do we really advance that debate purely by making party political points? We all do that, and there is nothing wrong with making party political points in a debate like this, but solely doing that, without also offering positive, constructive ideas of our own, does not advance the debate, move it forward or achieve change in the real world.

Whether in budget debates or at any other time, Greens have always sought to make a difference for people in the real world. Far too many others appear to have no interest in doing that. Some seem to have little interest in reality. The Conservatives’ dismissal of pretty much everything that the Government is doing was bizarre enough, but their leader’s suggestion that the one thing that was wrong with Liz Truss was that she was not in power longer seemed even more bizarre. There was also their failure to recognise the UK Government’s track record—the impact of tax giveaways to high earners and a brutal approach to social security—as well as the familiar ideological debate that we have had before, and will have again, on growth.

The record of even just this country’s economy is that there have been periods of high economic growth while whole communities have been put on the economic scrap heap. Economic growth on its own, without sustained and serious state intervention to ensure redistribution, does not create a trickle-down economy; it creates a hoover-up economy, empowering the wealthiest to further exploit the work of those on lower incomes.

Labour, on the other hand, seems determined, in the early stages of its term in UK Government, to disappoint. I will give credit where it is due: I really welcome the action that has been promised on the minimum wage, especially if Labour follows through on the commitment to abolish the discriminatory age bans. That will be a significant step. I give credit where it is due—but Labour does not seem willing to do the same. Anas Sarwar’s comments yesterday were dismissive of the Scottish child payment, saying that

“we have this pretence in Scotland that somehow welfare is the only route out of poverty”

and that the Scottish Government

“wants to pretend that one single benefit or payment has the answer.”

Neither I, nor anti-poverty organisations, nor the Scottish Government, have ever claimed that it was the answer, but it is the single most effective intervention from either Government in recent years. If Labour was willing to learn from what has worked, it would be copying that policy throughout the rest of the UK, not undermining it here. If the Labour UK Government had that ambition but, for party political reasons, did not want to copy what the SNP had done, it would at least reverse the worst Tory decisions, such as the two-child limit, but it will not. If Scottish Labour had that ambition, it would use the budget process to negotiate for positive, constructive change, but it does not do that either. It also refuses to back progressive tax changes, which can very easily begin to redistribute wealth from the richest to the rest.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-16003, in the name of John Swinney, on tackling child poverty and inequality through the Scottish budget....
The First Minister (John Swinney) SNP
When I became First Minister, I made it abundantly clear that the foremost priority of my Government would be the eradication of child poverty in Scotland. I...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
Given the high cost of the benefits bill, how will that be paid for if the Scottish Government cannot produce the economic growth that we so desperately need?
The First Minister SNP
The Government has a fully costed budget, which is available for Parliament to scrutinise and to support in February and which provides for the cost that I a...
Stephen Kerr (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
In the First Minister’s opening remarks, he talked about the root issues, and one that he correctly identified is good jobs. Good jobs are fuelled by skills,...
The First Minister SNP
We must ensure that we are able to make the appropriate provision that is necessary for the size and scale of the population that requires to be educated in ...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
The First Minister is setting out what is in the draft budget, but he knows from today’s announcement that he will get that budget through. I am interested i...
The First Minister SNP
I take nothing for granted about the budget process. The discussions that have been constructively engaged in by the Liberal Democrats, the Greens, the Labou...
Russell Findlay (West Scotland) (Con) Con
Everyone here wants to reduce and, we hope, eradicate child poverty. What we are debating is how best to achieve that, which is where we differ. John Swinney...
Paul O’Kane (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Is Russell Findlay genuinely trying to get the rest of the chamber to agree that he, as an ardent supporter of Liz Truss, should be trusted on how to support...
Russell Findlay Con
Paul O’Kane should know better. Liz Truss was in power for 50 days. This lot have been in power for 18 years. The definition of insanity is doing the same th...
The First Minister SNP
Will Russell Findlay take an intervention?
Russell Findlay Con
I will—yes.
The First Minister SNP
If Mr Findlay will not address the Liz Truss issue, will he say whether he considers that the agenda of austerity that was pursued consistently from 2010 to ...
Russell Findlay Con
John Swinney has squandered countless millions, if not billions, of pounds through his absolute incompetence. That is why my party believes that a different ...
Paul O’Kane (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Deputy Presiding Officer, I take this opportunity to wish you and colleagues across the chamber a happy new year. I begin, as I always do in such debates, b...
The First Minister SNP
I am anxious to engage with Mr O’Kane on the question of agreement across the parliamentary spectrum. One of the points that I made in my speech is that Parl...
Paul O’Kane Lab
Of course it is the Parliament’s responsibility to hold the targets in our hands. It was agreed across the chamber—prior to my being here—that they should be...
The First Minister SNP
Will Mr O’Kane take an intervention?
Paul O’Kane Lab
If Mr Swinney allows me to make a little progress, I will allow him back in. The point that I was moving on to make is about the length of time that we have...
The First Minister SNP
I am grateful to Mr O’Kane for giving way for a second time. I point out to him that we will only have 20 years of an SNP Government if we win the 2026 elect...
Paul O’Kane Lab
First, I say to the First Minister that it feels longer—like 30 years, perhaps—that the SNP has been in power. Perhaps I should have paid more attention in t...
Stephen Kerr Con
Will the member give way?
Paul O’Kane Lab
I will, in a moment. I was coming on to speak about the down payments that have been made to tackle those issues at the UK level: the raising of the minimum...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Be brief, Mr Kerr, please.
Stephen Kerr Con
Does Paul O’Kane accept that many economists—in fact, the majority of economists—predict that, because of the national insurance increases that are being bro...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Mr O’Kane, please start to bring your remarks to a close.
Paul O’Kane Lab
I will, Presiding Officer. Given that, clearly, Russell Findlay has some kind of idea that we, on this side of the chamber, should all be listening to about...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green) Green
The Scottish Government’s motion describes child poverty as its “single greatest priority” and as a “national mission”. All political parties agree that it s...
Collette Stevenson (East Kilbride) (SNP) SNP
In relation to the policy decisions that have been made by Labour, I note the fact that a handful of Labour MSPs are in the chamber for this debate about era...