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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 27 November 2024

27 Nov 2024 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Bus Drivers (Abuse)

I thank Claire Baker and the Labour Party for bringing this serious and important debate to the chamber this afternoon. Scottish Liberal Democrats will support the motion, which I hope will be passed.

I also associate myself and my party with what has been said about bus driver Keith Rollinson. Our thoughts go out to his family, friends and colleagues. Their loved one went out to do a day’s work and did not return because of the horrific actions of another. I can only imagine their pain and grief.

Ensuring safety and security for workers is of paramount importance. No one should feel unsafe at work, whatever that environment may be. No one is entitled to make anyone else feel unsafe or to act however they wish to act and to cause fear and alarm. Free bus travel provision is not a free entitlement—it comes with responsibility. We should not be apprehensive about sanctions such as the removal of free bus travel from individuals who repeatedly and persistently behave antisocially towards drivers or other passengers, or who cause damage to buses, but any policy to remove entitlement to bus passes must be clearly defined. There should be just cause for removal, and there should be an appeal mechanism.

As Sue Webber and others have pointed out, the vast majority of concessionary bus pass holders use their entitlement responsibly. We should be wary of tarnishing any group of people with the antisocial behaviour brush, but the evidence of an increase in antisocial behaviour following the introduction of free bus travel for under-22s points towards younger people—albeit a small minority of them.

I note with great concern the fact that Unite the union’s recent mass survey of bus drivers in Scotland showed that 51 per cent of respondents did not feel safe at work. That was just one of the survey’s many shocking findings.

All bus users can be affected by antisocial behaviour. In its briefing, the Confederation of Passenger Transport Scotland highlights the concern that vulnerable passengers might become isolated if they feel unsafe travelling on public transport.

I call on the Scottish Government to do more to tackle the underlying causes of antisocial behaviour. Early intervention strategies that could prevent antisocial behaviour have been eroded through the decline and underfunding of youth services.

Scotland’s alcohol issues need to be addressed, too, as does underage drinking. We need to ensure that the legal tools and measures that are used to combat antisocial behaviour are fit for purpose and that they act as deterrents or punishments, or are able to provide rehabilitation.

Buses do and will continue to play a core role in our efforts to decarbonise our economy and tackle the climate emergency. The CPT estimates that a full double-decker bus can take up to 75 cars off the road. If everyone swapped one car journey a month for a bus journey, that could save 2 million tonnes of carbon dioxide, but people will choose buses as an alternative to the car only when bus services are reliable, convenient, appealing and safe.

Our society sets laws, rules and boundaries. When it comes to antisocial behaviour, we should not shy away from the task of tackling repeat offenders. Taking away free bus provision is not the only measure that we can pursue. There are many causes of antisocial behaviour that the Scottish Government can do more to tackle today.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-15612, in the name of Claire Baker, on tackling abuse of bus drivers. I invite those members who wish to...
Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
I draw attention to my entry in the register of members’ interests and my membership of Unite the union. I send our deepest condolences to the family of Kei...
The Cabinet Secretary for Transport (Fiona Hyslop) SNP
The report’s actions have been carried out. I hosted a summit on that with all relevant bus partners. If Claire Baker has not seen the actions that have take...
Claire Baker Lab
My understanding is that more could be done from the previous report, such as improving lighting, staffing, reporting and training for staff. If that was imp...
Mark Ruskell (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Green
To be clear, does Claire Baker also support sanctions for fare-paying adult passengers who commit antisocial behaviour on our buses?
Claire Baker Lab
Yes, I certainly do. The last line of our motion does not make a distinction in relation to the age of the person who would be sanctioned for their behaviour...
Mark Ruskell (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Green
I associate myself with Claire Baker’s comments about the tragic death of Keith Rollinson. That was devastating, and our thoughts go out to his loved ones, f...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
Will Mark Ruskell take an intervention?
Mark Ruskell Green
If there is time in hand, I certainly will.
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
There is no time in hand. It is up to the member whether he wishes to absorb the intervention.
Mark Ruskell Green
I will take a very brief intervention.
Daniel Johnson Lab
Mark Ruskell is right that employers absolutely have a responsibility to drivers, but do passengers not also have a responsibility to uphold the decent norms...
Mark Ruskell Green
Absolutely. That is enshrined in law and in the conditions of carriage, and I will come on to that. I am shocked that many of the buses that we have in Scot...
The Cabinet Secretary for Transport (Fiona Hyslop) SNP
I thank Claire Baker for highlighting this important issue. Bus drivers are at the front line of delivery of vital public transport services. Our communitie...
Claire Baker Lab
I understand that under Andy Burnham’s scheme in Manchester, people have to sign a code of conduct before they get access to a pass. Is the Government consid...
Fiona Hyslop SNP
Yes, we are looking at that for all passengers who have a concessionary bus pass. Perpetrators of antisocial behaviour can be of any age, and the basis of o...
Douglas Ross (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
Fiona Hyslop SNP
I need to make progress. There is limited time in the debate. Fairness and consistency must underpin that work. I recently met Unite to discuss its 15-point...
Sue Webber (Lothian) (Con) Con
During the past fortnight, we have spent a significant amount of time discussing the topic that Claire Baker has brought to the chamber this afternoon—tackli...
Claire Baker Lab
Graeme Simpson’s members’ business debate was a year ago, so does Sue Webber share my disappointment that not much has changed in the past year? I appreciate...
Sue Webber Con
We all would, and it is helpful that it appears to be the case that, in the debate this afternoon, we are all in the same place. That acceptance will go a lo...
Beatrice Wishart (Shetland Islands) (LD) LD
I thank Claire Baker and the Labour Party for bringing this serious and important debate to the chamber this afternoon. Scottish Liberal Democrats will suppo...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We move to the open debate. I remind all members who wish to speak in the debate to check that they have pressed their request-to-speak buttons. I advise me...
Alex Rowley (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
Members who have spoken in the debate so far have rightly stressed that it is a minority that causes the problems, but I suggest that it is a growing minorit...
Fiona Hyslop SNP
Will the member give way?
Alex Rowley Lab
If the cabinet secretary is quick.
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Very briefly, cabinet secretary.
Fiona Hyslop SNP
The member is asking me to lobby bus operators, but does he realise that the UK Labour Government could now use its responsibilities in relation to vehicle r...
Alex Rowley Lab
I am not asking the cabinet secretary to lobby bus companies. I am saying that the Government is putting millions upon millions of pounds into those bus comp...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) SNP
I, too, welcome the debate, which was unfortunately prompted by dreadful, tragic circumstances, and I send my condolences to Keith Rollinson’s family and fri...