Committee
Finance and Public Administration Committee 19 November 2024
19 Nov 2024 · S6 · Finance and Public Administration Committee
Item of business
Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum
That is a possibility, convener. An interesting thing that came out in two or three of the Education, Children and Young People Committee’s evidence sessions is that much of the PEF—which has been a very successful way of funding support, particularly for schools and youngsters who have greater need, in some of the more disadvantaged communities—is currently being used for outdoor education. That speaks volumes about the choices that have been made in local authorities and schools to ensure that that money goes to something that clearly gives positive outcomes. I have engaged with the Scottish Government about the level of PEF that we have and how much of it is going to outdoor education, because it is important to find out what the total is. That funding is obviously provided by the Scottish Government. 09:45
In the same item of business
The Convener (Kenneth Gibson)
SNP
Good morning and welcome to the 32nd meeting in 2024 of the Finance and Public Administration Committee. We have received apologies from Michael Marra. Agen...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
Thank you, convener. It is a different experience for me to be at this end of the table. I think that the Parliament is well aware of my considerable passio...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you for that comprehensive opening statement. I can more or less wind up at that, I suppose, given that you have answered most of the questions. Every...
Liz Smith
Con
Both the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills and the Minister for Children, Young People and The Promise have been extremely helpful to me. Based on e...
The Convener
SNP
You mentioned such a trust in your opening statement. How would that work? For example, would the Government have to put in some seed money to draw in additi...
Liz Smith
Con
That is a possibility, convener. An interesting thing that came out in two or three of the Education, Children and Young People Committee’s evidence sessions...
The Convener
SNP
Pupil equity funding is important, but the point about it is that teachers can decide whether to spend it on outdoor education, books, computers, additional ...
Liz Smith
Con
We could not rely on it completely, of course, because there is not enough to do what we want to do. However, it is interesting that, in many cases, the choi...
The Convener
SNP
We could be talking about £100 million over three years, which is a very significant amount of money, and the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities is obv...
Liz Smith
Con
That is also a very good and important question. If we are to build a trust model, as some other countries have done, we will have to ensure that there is su...
The Convener
SNP
One issue that has come up in the evidence is the lack of capital funding. You talked about some facilities for the delivery of outdoor education that were c...
Liz Smith
Con
There are issues about some of the existing outdoor centres needing to update their facilities. However, when it comes to bed space, which is important becau...
The Convener
SNP
If 60,000 pupils a year are involved, it will not be 1,200 a week. We have a 38-week school year, but nobody will go in the week or two before Christmas, for...
Liz Smith
Con
That is true, convener. Demand is not even across the year. Nonetheless, you would be surprised at how booking is increasing in months that we would not norm...
The Convener
SNP
I agree with that, but does that not mean that we need there to be a capital allocation in the financial memorandum? COSLA and the Association of Directors o...
Liz Smith
Con
I understand that. However, I come back to the point that the ballpark figures in the financial memorandum and the Scottish Government costings are not that ...
The Convener
SNP
Paragraph 40 of the financial memorandum says: “In relation to cover for teachers in their absence from school, for primary schools it is reasonable to assu...
Liz Smith
Con
It is true that any classroom provision has to be under GTCS control. That is absolutely right and proper, because that concerns the professional qualificati...
The Convener
SNP
What about the cost of cancellations due to adverse weather or pupil illness, for example? The assumptions do not appear to consider what the intent would be...
Liz Smith
Con
Cancellation happens fairly regularly, not least because of the Scottish weather. Usually, if there is a cancellation, the trip is held over to a more approp...
The Convener
SNP
I would have thought that the schools would still be charged, because, if you are a provider and two pupils do not turn up, you have lost a few hundred pound...
Liz Smith
Con
Often, though, a trip is held over, because the booking can be remade. On the whole, outdoor education centres are pretty generous in allowing that to happen...
The Convener
SNP
Comhairle nan Eilean Siar has said that the timescales are not possible to meet without a detailed and well-informed financial memorandum that takes account ...
Liz Smith
Con
We did a lot of work—my staff did a phenomenal amount of work, not least because they have considerable experience in the sector, having worked in it. We spo...
The Convener
SNP
Other colleagues will want to explore some issues further, including one or two that I have not touched on. However, there is one further thing from me. Toda...
Liz Smith
Con
I am absolutely 100 per cent convinced that this is about providing our young people with the skills, confidence and resilience that we need in Scotland—part...
The Convener
SNP
We fully appreciate that and, all else being equal, I do not think there would be any argument at all against it. However, we must look at the budget, at tea...
Liz Smith
Con
Having been a teacher myself, I am slightly biased.
The Convener
SNP
Of course.
Liz Smith
Con
Teacher numbers are vitally important, particularly in the area of additional support for learning, where we do not have enough teachers. I would make a plea...