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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 30 October 2024

30 Oct 2024 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Schools (Funding)
Greer, Ross Green West Scotland Watch on SPTV

No, I am afraid not; I do not have time.

We need to rethink that approach; £145 million of public money was spent with the intention of resulting in more teachers, but we ended up with fewer teachers at the end of that first financial year. I do not think that that is all the fault of the Scottish Government. Councils have seriously undermined trust, but they are not the only ones that undermined the Verity house agreement; the Scottish Government clearly undermined it with the council tax freeze. We need to see all that in the wider context.

The issue here is threefold. Quite legitimately, the Scottish Government wants to protect teacher numbers and, quite legitimately, councils want to avoid having to make devastating cuts in other areas. Pam Duncan-Glancy mentioned support staff as an obvious example of that. However, the money does not exist to resolve both those challenges simultaneously. That funding question needs to be resolved in the longer term. The proposed Green amendment spoke to that, and I will come back to that later, but there is a much more urgent need to find a compromise now.

The first issue is a point of dialogue. The Convention of Scottish Local Authorities wants to declare a formal dispute, and the Scottish Government rejects that. To be frank, I think that that is a semantic point and I do not particularly care. However, there is a need for some kind of space for more dialogue.

COSLA has rejected the First Minister’s most recent response to it. It insists that the issues of teacher numbers, the national care service and the council tax freeze should be discussed together outside the annual budget process. As much as I have sympathy with the Scottish Government’s position, I think that showing some good will and, at the very least, agreeing to that discussion taking place outside the budget process might create the space for us to make progress.

Over the past couple of weeks, councillors in a variety of local authorities have raised with me another issue, as they were not sure whether this was an all-or-nothing position. If some councils were to fail to spend the money as the Government had prescribed, would the money be taken back from all councils? From what the cabinet secretary has said, that is not my understanding—I see that she is nodding. This is on a local authority by local authority basis. However, there is clearly a communication issue that is hampering any chance of reaching a compromise.

I return briefly to the impact of the pay deal, because we need to acknowledge that the same amount of cash simply will not pay for the same number of teachers as it did a couple of years ago. As some kind of compromise, the Government should be open to discussions about maintaining spend as opposed to maintaining overall teacher numbers. Compromise is possible and the Scottish Government should be open to one. I do not expect that we will hear about it in the debate, if for no other reason than the constraints of time. Local authorities will also need to show far more willingness to compromise than they have shown. At this point in time, something needs to give, and it is teachers and young people who are losing out unless we can come to some kind of agreement.

16:11  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-15060, in the name of Miles Briggs, on funding for teachers and schools in Scotland. I invite members who...
Miles Briggs (Lothian) (Con) Con
Deputy Presiding Officer, from what you have just said, I think that you would make a good headteacher. I thank my Scottish Conservative colleagues, Liam Ke...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Thank you, Mr Briggs. That was exemplary time keeping to kick us off. 15:57
The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (Jenny Gilruth) SNP
I take this opportunity to welcome Miles Briggs to his new position in education. I know that he cares passionately about improving outcomes for Scotland’s c...
Miles Briggs Con
Dr Sue Ellis, a former professor of education at the University of Strathclyde, has stated that councils are “stuck between a rock and a hard place”, and I...
Jenny Gilruth SNP
I would not agree. A number of local authorities have managed to maintain teacher numbers, and I would like to give them the funding right now. I would like ...
Stephen Kerr (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Jenny Gilruth SNP
I have no time in hand, unfortunately. As education secretary, I will fervently defend that policy. I am absolutely clear that it will be much more difficul...
Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
I am pleased to open the debate for Scottish Labour and to welcome Miles Briggs to his new role. Teachers are the beating heart of our education system. They...
Jenny Gilruth SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
Do I have any time in hand, Presiding Officer?
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Not very much.
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
I will take a brief intervention.
Jenny Gilruth SNP
Does the member at least acknowledge that, in the past year alone, the number of additional learning support assistants has increased by 725, specifically be...
Pam Duncan-Glancy Lab
As the cabinet secretary knows, the situation for pupils with additional support needs in Scotland is, as the Education, Children and Young People Committee ...
Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green) Green
I was proud of the £145 million that was included in the budget when the Greens joined the Government in 2021. It was the most significant request that we ma...
Stephen Kerr Con
Will the member give way?
Ross Greer Green
No, I am afraid not; I do not have time. We need to rethink that approach; £145 million of public money was spent with the intention of resulting in more te...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
I do not know what kind of crazy logic leads to the conclusion that cutting £145.5 million from local authority budgets will protect teacher numbers. Local a...
Jenny Gilruth SNP
I find it hard to follow Mr Rennie’s logic. As we have heard today, we have had two years of consecutive reductions in teacher numbers, but the Government ha...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Briefly, cabinet secretary—
Jenny Gilruth SNP
That is exactly what I have been doing since February to get funding out the door. Local authorities will not agree to it. Some of them want the funding, and...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Briefly—
Jenny Gilruth SNP
Is that a position that Mr Rennie supports?
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
I can give you some of the time back, Mr Rennie.
Willie Rennie LD
The Scottish Government is working on a misunderstanding. The education secretary seems to think that local authorities, including SNP-run Glasgow City Counc...
Stephen Kerr (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
The whole problem with the £145 million is that there is, frankly, no specific agreement about how that money will be spent. I have asked that question a hun...
Jenny Gilruth SNP
Look in the mirror!
Stephen Kerr Con
You can hold up a mirror, if you like.
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
You need to conclude, Mr Kerr.