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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 10 September 2024

10 Sep 2024 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Thank you, Presiding Officer. It is very unusual for you to say that to me. All that I can say in return is, “Be careful what you wish for.”

I start by thanking all members for their contributions. I will do my best to answer the questions that have been raised, but, if I run out of time or cannot read my own handwriting, I will endeavour to write to members with the further detail that they seek.

I will make sure that I stick to the subject of the bill in my remarks, with one exception. I agree with members who have stressed the central importance of body-worn cameras, because I agree 100 per cent that they protect officers from malicious allegations and allow for quicker and more efficient resolution of complaints, which can only be in the interests of victims, too.

I also want to highlight that I provided—the Scottish Government provided—the SPA and Police Scotland with funding for 2024-25 at record levels, to provide them with the resource that they needed to roll out body-worn cameras to police officers. Notwithstanding the fact that there are operational aspects that are absolutely for Police Scotland to decide, I am assured that it is being held to account by the SPA and that progress has been made, particularly on the progression of the contract for body-worn cameras.

I will start by talking about the money and addressing issues and concerns around the financial memorandum, because I want to say to everybody in the chamber that there is, indeed, no blank cheque. I heard the frustrations that were expressed by the Criminal Justice Committee and the Finance and Public Administration Committee, and I shared some of my own frustrations during that process, too. The bill was introduced as far back as June 2023, and the best information that was available at the time was included in the original financial memorandum. The information and the financial assessment changed.

Police Scotland, for good reasons, changed its assessment of the costs on its organisation, but I assure Parliament that I want to test that robustly, because every public pound is precious. I reassure all members that the most up-to-date information is available to them. I note for the record that there will be a revised financial memorandum at stage 2, as per standing orders. I have acknowledged that prompter information should have been available to both committees. I highlight that the permanent secretary and the Minister for Parliamentary Business are, indeed, engaged on this. On whether costs will increase any further, I will be looking to all members for financially modest stage 2 and stage 3 amendments, because I do not want costs to increase any further.

I turn to the progress that has been made. Most members have spoken of the importance of culture change, and progress on that started not with the bill but with a very honest acknowledgement that significant change was needed. That started when Lady Elish Angiolini’s review was commissioned and it progressed when both the Scottish Government and the Crown Office responded to the recommendations in that review, in February 2021.

There were 111 recommendations, and I confirm—Parliament is already aware of this through earlier information—that 59 of the 72 non-legislative recommendations were completed prior to stage 1 proceedings on the bill. Nine recommendations are still progressing, two are nearly completed and two are being reviewed. The purpose of the bill is to take forward the remaining recommendations by Lady Elish that require to be put in statute through legislation. Lady Elish told the Criminal Justice Committee:

“Instant results are seldom possible and seldom sustained. Changing the culture is a long game but it is worth investing time, effort and resource now to lay solid foundations”.

That is what we, as a Government, and, I believe, the Parliament are invested in.

Pauline McNeill asked about my reference to His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary in Scotland. I was referring to the HMICS vetting report, which contained one recommendation on vetting for the Scottish Government. It was:

“The Scottish Government should place into legislation the requirement for all Police Scotland officers and staff to obtain and maintain a minimum standard of vetting clearance and the provision for the Chief Constable to dispense with the service of an officer or staff member who cannot maintain suitable vetting.”

I confirm that, today, the Cabinet sub-committee on legislation agreed to a vetting amendment at stage 2, and I will lodge it.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-14398, in the name of Angela Constance, on the Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill at s...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs (Angela Constance) SNP
I am pleased to open the debate on the general principles of the Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill. I thank the Criminal Justice Committe...
Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
My understanding of the duty of candour is that the individual duty currently applies to the office of constable and the organisational duty will apply to th...
Angela Constance SNP
Very clear responsibilities are laid on the chief constable via the 2020 legislation in that the primary focus for holding the chief constable to account is ...
The Presiding Officer NPA
I call Audrey Nicoll to speak on behalf of the Criminal Justice Committee. 14:43
Audrey Nicoll (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased to speak on behalf of the Criminal Justice Committee. As ever, the committee is very grateful to our clerking team, the Scottish Parliament info...
Russell Findlay (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I, too, thank the committee clerks for the incredible work that they do on our behalf. Scotland’s police officers are true heroes. They serve the public wit...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Scottish Labour welcomes the opportunity to discuss the main provisions in the bill and how we can ensure the highest standards of conduct in the police serv...
Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green) Green
On behalf of the Scottish Greens, I welcome the bill and the reforms that it contains. Those reforms, as we have already heard, represent a further step in t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing) SNP
We move to the open debate, with back-bench speeches of around six minutes. I advise members that we have some time in hand, so if members wish to seek to ma...
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
As a member of the Criminal Justice Committee, I welcome the chance to speak in today’s important debate. The bill has been drafted using the recommendations...
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con) Con
The words “ethics, conduct and scrutiny” are in the title of the bill, and there are few places in public life where those words are as important as they are...
Angela Constance SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Jamie Greene Con
Yes, I will in a minute, but I want to make some progress first, because I want to make a wider point. It is very difficult to legislate in such areas becau...
Fulton MacGregor (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) SNP
Following on from what Jamie Greene said, I say that I think that all of us in Parliament can be proud that we live in a country that abides by the principle...
Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
I start by thanking the Criminal Justice Committee for its work on the bill and for the thorough report that it has produced. Although the committee has back...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
I call Jackie Dunbar, to be followed by Alexander Stewart. You have a generous six minutes, Ms Dunbar. 15:45
Jackie Dunbar (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) SNP
As a substitute member of the Criminal Justice Committee, I am pleased to take part in the debate. As the bill that is before us is about policing, I have be...
Alexander Stewart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this stage 1 debate on the Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill. Scotland’s brave police offi...
Ben Macpherson (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) SNP
As a new member of the Criminal Justice Committee and as a constituency MSP, I am pleased to speak in today’s important debate on the Police (Ethics, Conduct...
Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
It is a pleasure to follow Ben Macpherson, and I echo his comments about the move from a voluntary code to a statutory code. I will use the relatively short...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Before I call the final speaker in the open debate, I give a reminder that all members who have participated in the debate should be in the chamber for the c...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) SNP
I, too, congratulate the Criminal Justice Committee on its report. At this stage of the debate, much has been said, so I apologise in advance for revisiting ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
We move to the closing speeches. 16:15
Maggie Chapman Green
I thank colleagues for their contributions to the debate. As someone who does not sit on the Criminal Justice Committee but follows its work from the outside...
Katy Clark (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
As has been said, the bill comes before us as a result of the Angiolini review. The Criminal Justice Committee heard evidence from a number of witnesses who ...
Sharon Dowey (South Scotland) (Con) Con
As a member of the Criminal Justice Committee, which is considering the bill, I have been involved in scrutinising it for some time. I take the opportunity t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Thank you, Ms Dowey. I call Angela Constance. Cabinet secretary, you have a very generous 10 minutes. 16:36
Angela Constance SNP
Thank you, Presiding Officer. It is very unusual for you to say that to me. All that I can say in return is, “Be careful what you wish for.” I start by than...
Pauline McNeill Lab
I thank the cabinet secretary for clarifying that. As we will head into stage 2 shortly after stage 1, I ask her whether she will take cognisance of somethin...