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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 10 September 2024

10 Sep 2024 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Grahame, Christine SNP Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale Watch on SPTV

I, too, congratulate the Criminal Justice Committee on its report. At this stage of the debate, much has been said, so I apologise in advance for revisiting points that have already been made.

Let me preface my speech by stating clearly, as others have done—I think that we all endorse this view—that the overwhelming majority of police officers carry out their vast range of duties professionally and ethically. Those duties range from dealing with theft, attending road traffic accidents, carrying out drug investigations, helping folk with mental health issues, dealing with disputes between neighbours, dealing with domestic abuse and social disorder to investigating murders. The circumstances can vary as much as the incidents that I have identified. Police officers might simply need to be gently helpful, they might need to deal with someone who is confused or they might have to deal with threats to their life by a mob or an individual—they have to be ready for practically anything.

That is in a society in which regard for the police is not as it was in the days—here I will show my age; everyone over 70 will understand this—of the fictional “Dixon of Dock Green” or even the more recent but still distant “Z-Cars”. These days, respect for those in any position of authority has to be earned, which is not necessarily a bad thing. Thankfully, in this democracy, police also police by consent. Therefore, trust in the police must prevail, and that is most tested when policing goes wrong.

In every organisation, there will be bad eggs, and the police force is no exception. Who suffers from bad policing? It is the public and, of course, the individual, but it is also every other police officer.

On the Police Scotland website, there are currently directions on how to complain. For example, there are headings such as “What is a complaint?” and “Investigating your complaint”. There is an explanation of the Police Investigations and Review Commissioner and the criminal allegations against the police division, which is part of the Crown Office.

What if someone is unhappy about their complaint? What happens to it? The Police Scotland website says:

“If the reasons for your complaint are clear and we see it’s a minor, non-criminal complaint, we will record it. An officer from our Professional Standards Department will contact you to discuss the details of your complaint.

It may be that we can resolve your complaint quickly by providing information or explanation.

If we need to look at your complaint in more detail, our Professional Standards team will record it and contact you to explain the next steps. Your complaint may be allocated to an investigator to carry out further enquiry.

If you make a complaint direct to the Police Investigations & Review Commissioner (PIRC), they will direct you back to Police Scotland. We will then follow the same process as if you had contacted us directly.”

As Dame Elish Angiolini conceded, the system was reasonably good already, but there was room for improvement. One of the major parts of the bill that will strengthen the system is that an offending officer will not be able to escape discipline and punitive measures simply by retiring and, therefore, avoiding the outcome of a finding of gross misconduct. That practice is too often used as an escape route, and it is totally indefensible. The bill will also create barred and advisory lists to stop people who do not meet the high standards that are expected of police officers from gaining employment in policing anywhere in the UK.

I will conclude this brief contribution by referring to my experience as an MSP in my dealings with the police. In the vast majority of cases, we worked as a team, often in the interests of a vulnerable constituent, but—however rarely—I have experienced slipshod policing, as has been referenced by previous speakers. In those cases, only the use of what pressure I could bring to bear ensured that my constituents’ concerns were appropriately addressed. That should not have been necessary. However, I repeat that my contact over 25 years has been overwhelmingly positive.

I welcome the fact that the bill will weed out those who fail to meet the high standards that are rightly required of our police service, make those who are found guilty of gross misconduct pay the price for that, and strengthen the PIRC to ensure public confidence in the whole complaints procedure—by which I mean either complaints by the public against the police or complaints by police against fellow officers. However, there is one important issue. We must ensure that the balance is struck between fairness to the complainer and fairness to those who are subject to a complaint. That is crucial.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-14398, in the name of Angela Constance, on the Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill at s...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs (Angela Constance) SNP
I am pleased to open the debate on the general principles of the Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill. I thank the Criminal Justice Committe...
Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
My understanding of the duty of candour is that the individual duty currently applies to the office of constable and the organisational duty will apply to th...
Angela Constance SNP
Very clear responsibilities are laid on the chief constable via the 2020 legislation in that the primary focus for holding the chief constable to account is ...
The Presiding Officer NPA
I call Audrey Nicoll to speak on behalf of the Criminal Justice Committee. 14:43
Audrey Nicoll (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased to speak on behalf of the Criminal Justice Committee. As ever, the committee is very grateful to our clerking team, the Scottish Parliament info...
Russell Findlay (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I, too, thank the committee clerks for the incredible work that they do on our behalf. Scotland’s police officers are true heroes. They serve the public wit...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Scottish Labour welcomes the opportunity to discuss the main provisions in the bill and how we can ensure the highest standards of conduct in the police serv...
Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green) Green
On behalf of the Scottish Greens, I welcome the bill and the reforms that it contains. Those reforms, as we have already heard, represent a further step in t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing) SNP
We move to the open debate, with back-bench speeches of around six minutes. I advise members that we have some time in hand, so if members wish to seek to ma...
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
As a member of the Criminal Justice Committee, I welcome the chance to speak in today’s important debate. The bill has been drafted using the recommendations...
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con) Con
The words “ethics, conduct and scrutiny” are in the title of the bill, and there are few places in public life where those words are as important as they are...
Angela Constance SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Jamie Greene Con
Yes, I will in a minute, but I want to make some progress first, because I want to make a wider point. It is very difficult to legislate in such areas becau...
Fulton MacGregor (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) SNP
Following on from what Jamie Greene said, I say that I think that all of us in Parliament can be proud that we live in a country that abides by the principle...
Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
I start by thanking the Criminal Justice Committee for its work on the bill and for the thorough report that it has produced. Although the committee has back...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
I call Jackie Dunbar, to be followed by Alexander Stewart. You have a generous six minutes, Ms Dunbar. 15:45
Jackie Dunbar (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) SNP
As a substitute member of the Criminal Justice Committee, I am pleased to take part in the debate. As the bill that is before us is about policing, I have be...
Alexander Stewart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this stage 1 debate on the Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill. Scotland’s brave police offi...
Ben Macpherson (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) SNP
As a new member of the Criminal Justice Committee and as a constituency MSP, I am pleased to speak in today’s important debate on the Police (Ethics, Conduct...
Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
It is a pleasure to follow Ben Macpherson, and I echo his comments about the move from a voluntary code to a statutory code. I will use the relatively short...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Before I call the final speaker in the open debate, I give a reminder that all members who have participated in the debate should be in the chamber for the c...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) SNP
I, too, congratulate the Criminal Justice Committee on its report. At this stage of the debate, much has been said, so I apologise in advance for revisiting ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
We move to the closing speeches. 16:15
Maggie Chapman Green
I thank colleagues for their contributions to the debate. As someone who does not sit on the Criminal Justice Committee but follows its work from the outside...
Katy Clark (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
As has been said, the bill comes before us as a result of the Angiolini review. The Criminal Justice Committee heard evidence from a number of witnesses who ...
Sharon Dowey (South Scotland) (Con) Con
As a member of the Criminal Justice Committee, which is considering the bill, I have been involved in scrutinising it for some time. I take the opportunity t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Thank you, Ms Dowey. I call Angela Constance. Cabinet secretary, you have a very generous 10 minutes. 16:36
Angela Constance SNP
Thank you, Presiding Officer. It is very unusual for you to say that to me. All that I can say in return is, “Be careful what you wish for.” I start by than...
Pauline McNeill Lab
I thank the cabinet secretary for clarifying that. As we will head into stage 2 shortly after stage 1, I ask her whether she will take cognisance of somethin...