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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 10 September 2024

10 Sep 2024 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Stewart, Alexander Con Mid Scotland and Fife Watch on SPTV

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this stage 1 debate on the Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill.

Scotland’s brave police officers play a hugely important role in keeping our communities safe. Those individuals work in some of the most challenging circumstances imaginable. They are often forced to put their own safety at risk in order to support others and do their job effectively. No one would question that police officers deserve our utmost gratitude and respect.

At the same time, given the important role that police officers play in keeping our country safe, it is right that they are held to the highest professional standards. Indeed, public trust in our police depends on that being the case. Public trust also depends on there being a robust and transparent complaints system, so that any perceived abuse of authority can be challenged reasonably and fairly.

I was a member of Tayside joint police board for 15 years when I was a councillor, and I had the privilege of serving on the complaints sub-committee. I saw many of the issues that are being raised here today at first hand.

We can see that the current system is far from perfect. In her report, Dame Elish spoke about the current police complaints system being “inaccessible” to the public. That is a major issue if that is to be believed and is the case.

It is important for us to understand the range and complexity of complaints. When taking evidence on the bill, the Criminal Justice Committee heard from several witnesses who felt let down by Police Scotland’s professional standards department, including one witness who said:

“the system needs to be changed completely ... It should be scrapped, reset and replaced with something completely new”.—[Official Report, Criminal Justice Committee, 17 April 2024; c 25.]

If that is the case, that sounds alarm bells as to what the public think when they are dealing with that department.

Many MSPs will have dealt with constituents who have felt let down by the process, which has failed to engage with them and address their concerns. I have been assisting a constituent who has navigated the police complaints process for more than two years. After feeling that police officers had turned a blind eye to his concerns, he proceeded with a lengthy complaint-handling review. At the end of that ordeal, he now feels exhausted and frustrated by a complaints system that he believes let him down. It is not transparent, and it should be fixed. I have no doubt that other members across the Parliament will have heard similar stories. We have heard from members about such cases already this afternoon.

The Conservatives welcome the proposed new legislation, which seeks to make improvements. There will be support for that from across the chamber if that is truly going to be achieved. That is why it is vitally important that the bill delivers genuine change, instead of just appearing to bring change. It is obvious that, in its current format, the bill will not deliver on some of the bold objectives that we want it to fulfil. We welcome changes such as the introduction of a Scottish police barred list, as well as the closing of loopholes such as those that allow officers to avoid investigations by retiring or resigning.

The Criminal Justice Committee’s report highlights that, overall, the bill is unlikely to improve the time that it takes to deal with complaints, which is one of the biggest problems with the current system.

The Scottish Police Federation has highlighted that the proposed code of ethics is likely to have no noticeable effect on overall police standards. Again, that is concerning. For my constituent, and for many others who have felt let down by the current system, the reforms in the bill are a missed opportunity.

A number of concerns have been raised around the bill’s cost implications, and some of those have been expressed during the debate. Since the financial memorandum was published, entirely new costs have been introduced for some aspects of the bill. For example, there are revised costs of more than £1.5 million for one-off Police Scotland training costs.

Given that, it is hardly surprising that the Finance and Public Administration Committee has accused the Scottish Government of providing figures that it already knew were inaccurate. Inaccurate figures should not be being provided at this stage.

I welcome the fact that the justice secretary has confirmed that an updated financial memorandum will be provided by stage 2, but that should have been provided, as far as possible, at stage 1. At the same time, it is disappointing to hear that the bill’s costs could still rise even further, which my colleague Russell Findlay spoke about in his opening remarks.

The important work that is carried out by the police across Scotland requires significant authority, but that, in turn, requires accountability. We all recognise that. It is important that the system that is in place to hold police officers to account is transparent, fair and robust, and that the public have confidence in it.

The bill makes a lot of the right noises about making improvements and tackling issues in some of the areas that I have mentioned, and it ticks some of the boxes that individuals and organisations have talked about in relation to its general principles. However, it has a long way to go to deliver the reforms that many people want.

I hope that, as the bill progresses, there will be an opportunity for genuine reform, so that we can have real change.

In conclusion, Presiding Officer, we welcome the bill and want to see it progress, but it must progress through the provision of real opportunities, not missed opportunities, by the Scottish Government.

15:57  

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-14398, in the name of Angela Constance, on the Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill at s...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs (Angela Constance) SNP
I am pleased to open the debate on the general principles of the Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill. I thank the Criminal Justice Committe...
Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
My understanding of the duty of candour is that the individual duty currently applies to the office of constable and the organisational duty will apply to th...
Angela Constance SNP
Very clear responsibilities are laid on the chief constable via the 2020 legislation in that the primary focus for holding the chief constable to account is ...
The Presiding Officer NPA
I call Audrey Nicoll to speak on behalf of the Criminal Justice Committee. 14:43
Audrey Nicoll (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased to speak on behalf of the Criminal Justice Committee. As ever, the committee is very grateful to our clerking team, the Scottish Parliament info...
Russell Findlay (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I, too, thank the committee clerks for the incredible work that they do on our behalf. Scotland’s police officers are true heroes. They serve the public wit...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Scottish Labour welcomes the opportunity to discuss the main provisions in the bill and how we can ensure the highest standards of conduct in the police serv...
Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green) Green
On behalf of the Scottish Greens, I welcome the bill and the reforms that it contains. Those reforms, as we have already heard, represent a further step in t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing) SNP
We move to the open debate, with back-bench speeches of around six minutes. I advise members that we have some time in hand, so if members wish to seek to ma...
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
As a member of the Criminal Justice Committee, I welcome the chance to speak in today’s important debate. The bill has been drafted using the recommendations...
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con) Con
The words “ethics, conduct and scrutiny” are in the title of the bill, and there are few places in public life where those words are as important as they are...
Angela Constance SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Jamie Greene Con
Yes, I will in a minute, but I want to make some progress first, because I want to make a wider point. It is very difficult to legislate in such areas becau...
Fulton MacGregor (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) SNP
Following on from what Jamie Greene said, I say that I think that all of us in Parliament can be proud that we live in a country that abides by the principle...
Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
I start by thanking the Criminal Justice Committee for its work on the bill and for the thorough report that it has produced. Although the committee has back...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
I call Jackie Dunbar, to be followed by Alexander Stewart. You have a generous six minutes, Ms Dunbar. 15:45
Jackie Dunbar (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) SNP
As a substitute member of the Criminal Justice Committee, I am pleased to take part in the debate. As the bill that is before us is about policing, I have be...
Alexander Stewart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this stage 1 debate on the Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill. Scotland’s brave police offi...
Ben Macpherson (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) SNP
As a new member of the Criminal Justice Committee and as a constituency MSP, I am pleased to speak in today’s important debate on the Police (Ethics, Conduct...
Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
It is a pleasure to follow Ben Macpherson, and I echo his comments about the move from a voluntary code to a statutory code. I will use the relatively short...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Before I call the final speaker in the open debate, I give a reminder that all members who have participated in the debate should be in the chamber for the c...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) SNP
I, too, congratulate the Criminal Justice Committee on its report. At this stage of the debate, much has been said, so I apologise in advance for revisiting ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
We move to the closing speeches. 16:15
Maggie Chapman Green
I thank colleagues for their contributions to the debate. As someone who does not sit on the Criminal Justice Committee but follows its work from the outside...
Katy Clark (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
As has been said, the bill comes before us as a result of the Angiolini review. The Criminal Justice Committee heard evidence from a number of witnesses who ...
Sharon Dowey (South Scotland) (Con) Con
As a member of the Criminal Justice Committee, which is considering the bill, I have been involved in scrutinising it for some time. I take the opportunity t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Thank you, Ms Dowey. I call Angela Constance. Cabinet secretary, you have a very generous 10 minutes. 16:36
Angela Constance SNP
Thank you, Presiding Officer. It is very unusual for you to say that to me. All that I can say in return is, “Be careful what you wish for.” I start by than...
Pauline McNeill Lab
I thank the cabinet secretary for clarifying that. As we will head into stage 2 shortly after stage 1, I ask her whether she will take cognisance of somethin...