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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 10 September 2024

10 Sep 2024 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

As a substitute member of the Criminal Justice Committee, I am pleased to take part in the debate. As the bill that is before us is about policing, I have been reflecting on my time as a councillor in Aberdeen, which included being a member of the Grampian joint police board and of its sub-committee that dealt with police complaints. I attended numerous meetings of the community council and committees where police officers were also in attendance, and I had catch-ups with officers who worked tirelessly across my ward and across Aberdeen.

I have also been reflecting on my former colleagues on Aberdeen City Council. When I stood down from the council, more than a quarter of my colleagues in the Scottish National Party group had served in the police in some way or other. Audrey Nicoll, who is now the convener of the Parliament’s Criminal Justice Committee, was among them.

The common themes that I have drawn from all my experiences with police officers, both serving and retired, have always been their professionalism and the personal standards that they upheld. The reputation of the police force meant a lot to them, and it helped them in carrying out their duties.

When we consider the situations that police officers often find themselves in—dealing with folk who are angry, upset or grieving and who are generally at the extremes of a range of emotions—two aspects come to mind. The first is that the presence of a police officer can help to calm a situation, because folk have an expectation of how that officer will act and behave. Such an expectation comes from the high standards that we demand—and receive—from thousands of police officers across Scotland.

On the other hand, frequently putting our officers in such situations increases the chance that they will be there when something goes wrong, or that, even when everything is done right, the outcome is distressing or someone is aggrieved. It is in those situations in particular that I hope that the bill can improve the experiences of police officers and complainants alike, and that it will help to protect the reputation of Police Scotland, which officers across Scotland so often rely on.

I stress the point that the reputation of our police force benefits and helps to protect every single officer. However, that is not unique to the police. The best comparison is with our armed forces, whose members also work tirelessly to maintain their standards and reputation, which go to great lengths to protect their reputation and which, over the years, have seen that that pays dividends during operations.

In looking at all the work that the committee did, it is clear that a number of folk—both people who raised complaints and people who were the subject of complaints—felt that the current arrangements could and should be improved. It is pleasing that the committee supports the general principles of the bill and that it welcomes many of its proposals.

Equally, there needs to be recognition of the hurdles that the bill will have to overcome after today. I note that there was disagreement among committee members on whether gross misconduct hearings should be held in public. There were also questions about what “in public” means. In all honesty, I can understand both sides of that argument. The Scottish Police Federation and the Association of Scottish Police Superintendents both raised concerns about allowing former constables to be investigated, although one witness spoke of their preference that the investigation into their conduct had been allowed to conclude after their resignation.

As the cabinet secretary said in her opening remarks, there were also questions about time limits for investigating complaints against former officers, with a period of 12 months being spoken of, although not as a hard-and-fast statutory requirement. It was said that it would be for the commissioner to make a judgment on public interest and fairness. I wonder whether we will see situations in which officers who leave the force before the bill is passed will be investigated under the act. What considerations have there been around the retrospective element of that? Perhaps the cabinet secretary could address those matters in her summing up.

The committee’s report also notes the concerns about costs. In this new era of Labour austerity, every penny will be a prisoner.

There is much for the committee and the Government to consider as the bill moves forward, but today is about its general principles, which I am pleased to support. The bill is of course part of a wider picture, whereby Police Scotland and the Scottish Government have implemented a number of changes in recent years, prompted by the review led by Dame Elish Angiolini. There is a lot that both Police Scotland and the Scottish Government have already implemented following the work that Dame Elish undertook, and I look forward to the bill moving forward, becoming legislation, complementing that work and helping to build the Scotland that we all want to see.

15:50  

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-14398, in the name of Angela Constance, on the Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill at s...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs (Angela Constance) SNP
I am pleased to open the debate on the general principles of the Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill. I thank the Criminal Justice Committe...
Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
My understanding of the duty of candour is that the individual duty currently applies to the office of constable and the organisational duty will apply to th...
Angela Constance SNP
Very clear responsibilities are laid on the chief constable via the 2020 legislation in that the primary focus for holding the chief constable to account is ...
The Presiding Officer NPA
I call Audrey Nicoll to speak on behalf of the Criminal Justice Committee. 14:43
Audrey Nicoll (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased to speak on behalf of the Criminal Justice Committee. As ever, the committee is very grateful to our clerking team, the Scottish Parliament info...
Russell Findlay (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I, too, thank the committee clerks for the incredible work that they do on our behalf. Scotland’s police officers are true heroes. They serve the public wit...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Scottish Labour welcomes the opportunity to discuss the main provisions in the bill and how we can ensure the highest standards of conduct in the police serv...
Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green) Green
On behalf of the Scottish Greens, I welcome the bill and the reforms that it contains. Those reforms, as we have already heard, represent a further step in t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing) SNP
We move to the open debate, with back-bench speeches of around six minutes. I advise members that we have some time in hand, so if members wish to seek to ma...
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
As a member of the Criminal Justice Committee, I welcome the chance to speak in today’s important debate. The bill has been drafted using the recommendations...
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con) Con
The words “ethics, conduct and scrutiny” are in the title of the bill, and there are few places in public life where those words are as important as they are...
Angela Constance SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Jamie Greene Con
Yes, I will in a minute, but I want to make some progress first, because I want to make a wider point. It is very difficult to legislate in such areas becau...
Fulton MacGregor (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) SNP
Following on from what Jamie Greene said, I say that I think that all of us in Parliament can be proud that we live in a country that abides by the principle...
Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
I start by thanking the Criminal Justice Committee for its work on the bill and for the thorough report that it has produced. Although the committee has back...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
I call Jackie Dunbar, to be followed by Alexander Stewart. You have a generous six minutes, Ms Dunbar. 15:45
Jackie Dunbar (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) SNP
As a substitute member of the Criminal Justice Committee, I am pleased to take part in the debate. As the bill that is before us is about policing, I have be...
Alexander Stewart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this stage 1 debate on the Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill. Scotland’s brave police offi...
Ben Macpherson (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) SNP
As a new member of the Criminal Justice Committee and as a constituency MSP, I am pleased to speak in today’s important debate on the Police (Ethics, Conduct...
Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
It is a pleasure to follow Ben Macpherson, and I echo his comments about the move from a voluntary code to a statutory code. I will use the relatively short...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Before I call the final speaker in the open debate, I give a reminder that all members who have participated in the debate should be in the chamber for the c...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) SNP
I, too, congratulate the Criminal Justice Committee on its report. At this stage of the debate, much has been said, so I apologise in advance for revisiting ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
We move to the closing speeches. 16:15
Maggie Chapman Green
I thank colleagues for their contributions to the debate. As someone who does not sit on the Criminal Justice Committee but follows its work from the outside...
Katy Clark (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
As has been said, the bill comes before us as a result of the Angiolini review. The Criminal Justice Committee heard evidence from a number of witnesses who ...
Sharon Dowey (South Scotland) (Con) Con
As a member of the Criminal Justice Committee, which is considering the bill, I have been involved in scrutinising it for some time. I take the opportunity t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Thank you, Ms Dowey. I call Angela Constance. Cabinet secretary, you have a very generous 10 minutes. 16:36
Angela Constance SNP
Thank you, Presiding Officer. It is very unusual for you to say that to me. All that I can say in return is, “Be careful what you wish for.” I start by than...
Pauline McNeill Lab
I thank the cabinet secretary for clarifying that. As we will head into stage 2 shortly after stage 1, I ask her whether she will take cognisance of somethin...