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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 10 September 2024

10 Sep 2024 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Baker, Claire Lab Mid Scotland and Fife Watch on SPTV

I start by thanking the Criminal Justice Committee for its work on the bill and for the thorough report that it has produced. Although the committee has backed the bill, it has expressed concerns about whether the reform that it seeks will make sufficient improvement to the police complaints system, the culture within policing and the confidence of the public about police complaints being dealt with effectively.

Concerns need to be addressed as the bill progresses, so this afternoon’s debate is an opportunity to focus on where improvements can be made.

Other members will talk more about the approach of the police or about their legal understanding of the bill, but I will focus my remarks on what it seeks to do to improve the experience of victims and the public more generally.

The bill needs to be looked at in the wider context of work to improve the police complaints and conduct systems, but that also means that we need to consider the environment in which the legislation will operate. We need to consider the system as it stands, public opinion of the service and the experiences of those who have gone through the processes that have been in place up to this point.

Before I move on to the committee’s report and recommendations, I will speak briefly about Sheku Bayoh, who died in police custody in 2015. After more than nine years since his death, the public inquiry into the circumstances surrounding it is on-going, and his family and friends are still seeking answers about what happened, as they continue to cope with the impact of their loss. They were not treated well immediately after Sheku’s death, and experienced a lack of information and engagement during a time of trauma and distress, which unfortunately continued as investigations went on. Through the process, his family lost faith and confidence in the police investigation and in the ability of the PIRC. It is with their experience in mind that I have read the committee’s report and its recommendations.

It has been recognised and endorsed across the chamber that the vast majority of police officers and staff are honest and hardworking in what can be very challenging roles, but it is also true that there has been unacceptable conduct and behaviour from a minority within the service. When it comes to the oversight role of the SPA, there needs to be confidence that, when such behaviours occur, robust measures are in place to deal with them. The committee heard evidence of unacceptable practice in Police Scotland, but why such practice was not identified and addressed by the SPA, and what is changing to ensure that others will not have the same experience, are not clear.

The public need to have confidence that the culture in policing is being addressed. Since the Angiolini review, steps have been taken to improve police complaints and conduct, and the bill is one aspect of that. However, as the report states, it is hard to have a definitive view on what stage of progress things are at or on whether the provisions in the bill will sufficiently improve the experience for the police or the public.

The duty of candour needs to be more than a symbolic gesture. There is a perception, which is expressed in the report, that the police have each other’s backs, and that there is a working environment in which it is difficult to admit mistakes or to call out inappropriate behaviour. We need to think about how the duty will do more than the existing requirements to address that. That underlines why the legislation has to sit within a broader cultural shift. Without tackling that, it is difficult to see what will change.

I welcome the fact that the evidence highlights work such as Police Scotland’s policing together programme, which recognises the need to enable a more open environment that allows for early intervention. I recognise that the Angiolini review called, as part of the conduct regulations, for a duty of co-operation that would apply if officers were called as witnesses. However, the Scottish Government has said that that would not be free-standing. In line with the committee’s call, I would like further information on why that will not be introduced, particularly in the light of the evidence from the PIRC in support of it.

I will touch on some of the other aspects of the bill that could have positive impacts for the public. In allegations of misconduct where a police officer resigns or retires during investigations, a case has to be made for those processes to be concluded. We need to consider the public expectation that, in instances of gross misconduct, a conclusion has to be reached.

The committee noted broad agreement in the creation of a Scottish police advisory list and a Scottish police barred list, which would bring consistency with other forces and improve vetting. Publishing the barred list, but allowing only relevant organisations to have access to the advisory list, as is the case in England and Wales, could provide some reassurance in terms of protection and accountability for the public.

The committee was not able to agree on whether gross misconduct hearings should be held in public. It has called on the Scottish Government to set out the case for that. Lady Elish Angiolini is in favour of those hearings being held in public and pointed to the importance of transparency around any abuse of power, as well as to similarities in other professional proceedings. I accept that concerns about privacy have been raised, but there should also be safeguards in place. We should remember that we are talking about cases of gross misconduct. If we are serious about improving transparency and assuring the public, an approach of that kind could help.

Finally, on complaint handling reviews, the bill would allow the PIRC to carry out a review without a request by the complainer, Police Scotland or the SPA, if that were in the public interest, and it could make recommendations to which the SPA and the police would be required to respond.

We know that some victims’ experiences of the PIRC have not been positive. The committee heard evidence of a lack of transparency from the PIRC when it comes to reporting the outcomes of reviews, including in relation to the time that has been taken and understanding the decisions that have been reached. In considering the bill at this stage, we must ensure that there is transparency around both that process and the publication of information. Making everyone concerned aware of any relevant review, and of whether the outcome will be made public, would be welcome steps.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-14398, in the name of Angela Constance, on the Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill at s...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs (Angela Constance) SNP
I am pleased to open the debate on the general principles of the Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill. I thank the Criminal Justice Committe...
Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
My understanding of the duty of candour is that the individual duty currently applies to the office of constable and the organisational duty will apply to th...
Angela Constance SNP
Very clear responsibilities are laid on the chief constable via the 2020 legislation in that the primary focus for holding the chief constable to account is ...
The Presiding Officer NPA
I call Audrey Nicoll to speak on behalf of the Criminal Justice Committee. 14:43
Audrey Nicoll (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased to speak on behalf of the Criminal Justice Committee. As ever, the committee is very grateful to our clerking team, the Scottish Parliament info...
Russell Findlay (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I, too, thank the committee clerks for the incredible work that they do on our behalf. Scotland’s police officers are true heroes. They serve the public wit...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
Scottish Labour welcomes the opportunity to discuss the main provisions in the bill and how we can ensure the highest standards of conduct in the police serv...
Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green) Green
On behalf of the Scottish Greens, I welcome the bill and the reforms that it contains. Those reforms, as we have already heard, represent a further step in t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing) SNP
We move to the open debate, with back-bench speeches of around six minutes. I advise members that we have some time in hand, so if members wish to seek to ma...
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
As a member of the Criminal Justice Committee, I welcome the chance to speak in today’s important debate. The bill has been drafted using the recommendations...
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con) Con
The words “ethics, conduct and scrutiny” are in the title of the bill, and there are few places in public life where those words are as important as they are...
Angela Constance SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Jamie Greene Con
Yes, I will in a minute, but I want to make some progress first, because I want to make a wider point. It is very difficult to legislate in such areas becau...
Fulton MacGregor (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) SNP
Following on from what Jamie Greene said, I say that I think that all of us in Parliament can be proud that we live in a country that abides by the principle...
Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
I start by thanking the Criminal Justice Committee for its work on the bill and for the thorough report that it has produced. Although the committee has back...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur) LD
I call Jackie Dunbar, to be followed by Alexander Stewart. You have a generous six minutes, Ms Dunbar. 15:45
Jackie Dunbar (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) SNP
As a substitute member of the Criminal Justice Committee, I am pleased to take part in the debate. As the bill that is before us is about policing, I have be...
Alexander Stewart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this stage 1 debate on the Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill. Scotland’s brave police offi...
Ben Macpherson (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) SNP
As a new member of the Criminal Justice Committee and as a constituency MSP, I am pleased to speak in today’s important debate on the Police (Ethics, Conduct...
Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
It is a pleasure to follow Ben Macpherson, and I echo his comments about the move from a voluntary code to a statutory code. I will use the relatively short...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Before I call the final speaker in the open debate, I give a reminder that all members who have participated in the debate should be in the chamber for the c...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) SNP
I, too, congratulate the Criminal Justice Committee on its report. At this stage of the debate, much has been said, so I apologise in advance for revisiting ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
We move to the closing speeches. 16:15
Maggie Chapman Green
I thank colleagues for their contributions to the debate. As someone who does not sit on the Criminal Justice Committee but follows its work from the outside...
Katy Clark (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
As has been said, the bill comes before us as a result of the Angiolini review. The Criminal Justice Committee heard evidence from a number of witnesses who ...
Sharon Dowey (South Scotland) (Con) Con
As a member of the Criminal Justice Committee, which is considering the bill, I have been involved in scrutinising it for some time. I take the opportunity t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer LD
Thank you, Ms Dowey. I call Angela Constance. Cabinet secretary, you have a very generous 10 minutes. 16:36
Angela Constance SNP
Thank you, Presiding Officer. It is very unusual for you to say that to me. All that I can say in return is, “Be careful what you wish for.” I start by than...
Pauline McNeill Lab
I thank the cabinet secretary for clarifying that. As we will head into stage 2 shortly after stage 1, I ask her whether she will take cognisance of somethin...